Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?

JDS

Well-known member
So again the original question was...
I have answered your question but you continue to ask it. I am not sure what your end game is here.

Let me answer this question from a different perspective. You have been dealing with God creating a person like himself who can sin. What if the answer to that question is "no" otherwise God would be creating a God. But, what if God could generate from a man someone like himself who could sin but did not sin. Jesus Christ is God but he is also a man. He came down from heaven, having neither beginning or ending, but he came into the human realm through a woman and became one of us. He came to reclaim the position of sons of God for us which Adam had lost and he did it in reverse order as Adam.

God cannot die but Jesus died.
God cannot suffer need, but Jesus needed things
God cannot sleep but Jesus slept.
Etc, etc, etc

Does this mean Jesus is not God. No, it means he is a man. It means he has set his deity aside for a purpose.

Next question. Could Jesus have sinned? Well, the answer is in logic and reason and the scriptures and what the words of scripture says. The answer is "yes."

Here is what is said about Jesus.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus Christ is the only man in the OT who was exactly like Adam when he was created. Adam was flesh, a body, a soul, and the Spirit of God was in him, making him the image of God, a trinity. Jesus Christ received his human body through Mary and was the promised "seed of the woman of Gen 3:15, who would bruise the serpent's head." He was a soul, and in his death his soul was separated from his Body, and from the Spirit of God, and was in paradise for three days. The Spirit had departed from his body when God accounted our sins on his account and punished him as sin and the world turned dark. In this manner God was propitiated for the sins of men and his wrath against sin was executed and he was no longer angry at sinners. Reconciliation had been made on God's part because SIN HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY and personal sins are not imputed to the sinner while he lives. "For as it is appointed man once to die, but after this the judgement." Heb 9:27

Now, sinners are made a new creation in the image of Jesus Christ when they, through repentance and faith, receive the Spirit of Christ into their bodies, making them into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ while he was here on earth, body, soul, and Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We have the Spirit in vessels of clay but at the resurrection we will receive a glorified body, like unto his glorious body, and we will have the image of God, who cannot sin, restored to us. Meanwhile, when Christians die physically, we are as Jesus was until his resurrection. All three parts of man are separated. We Christians have the capacity to sin in these bodies even though the Spirit of God is in us. Jesus Christ could have sinned in his weak body but he did not. This is why God could receive his atoning sacrifice for others.

There is abundance of biblical evidence for my above conclusions but here is a couple;

Matt 1:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The points of sin are three, 1) the lust of the flesh 2) the lust of the eyes, 3) the pride of life.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is the order of the temptation of Eve and it is the order for us. It was the order for Jesus in Matt 1.

Sin is committed against God in the flesh.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Sin is deeds of the body because the flesh is weak. Jesus was in his most weakened condition when he was tempted by Satan yet he did not sin.


Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I know this is an answer around the horn but I suspect that you are attempting to justify your very false Calvinistic doctrines that can save no one but only condemn them. You will not accept any answer that does not support your preconceptions and presuppositions.

Jesus Christ the man could have sinned but God could not. In every case Jesus yielded to the Spirit who was in his body to empower him against the temptation through the flesh. This is the same Spirit who dwells in the bodies of believers of the gospel, who is given to them as the gift of God when they believe.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
When God created Adam with the ability to sin, unlike God, did God create Adam with that specific ability for a purpose?

In other words what is Gods specific purpose in creating Adam with the ability to sin?
Seeing who God is, there had to be a Plan; or God made a mistake. God wouldn't be who he is then...

The ReverendRV Dilemma...

Wasn't the Euthyphro Dilemma a bunch of speculation?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I think speculation has it's place here from time to time...
Love cannot be forced

God wanted people who would react to him with Love and willful obedience and reverence not robots or chatty Kathy dolls who would say I love you when ever the string is pulled
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Love cannot be forced

God wanted people who would react to him with Love and willful obedience and reverence not robots or chatty Kathy dolls who would say I love you when ever the string is pulled
Is that what he is speculating??
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I have answered your question but you continue to ask it. I am not sure what your end game is here.

Let me answer this question from a different perspective. You have been dealing with God creating a person like himself who can sin. What if the answer to that question is "no" otherwise God would be creating a God. But, what if God could generate from a man someone like himself who could sin but did not sin. Jesus Christ is God but he is also a man. He came down from heaven, having neither beginning or ending, but he came into the human realm through a woman and became one of us. He came to reclaim the position of sons of God for us which Adam had lost and he did it in reverse order as Adam.

God cannot die but Jesus died.
God cannot suffer need, but Jesus needed things
God cannot sleep but Jesus slept.
Etc, etc, etc

Does this mean Jesus is not God. No, it means he is a man. It means he has set his deity aside for a purpose.

Next question. Could Jesus have sinned? Well, the answer is in logic and reason and the scriptures and what the words of scripture says. The answer is "yes."

Here is what is said about Jesus.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus Christ is the only man in the OT who was exactly like Adam when he was created. Adam was flesh, a body, a soul, and the Spirit of God was in him, making him the image of God, a trinity. Jesus Christ received his human body through Mary and was the promised "seed of the woman of Gen 3:15, who would bruise the serpent's head." He was a soul, and in his death his soul was separated from his Body, and from the Spirit of God, and was in paradise for three days. The Spirit had departed from his body when God accounted our sins on his account and punished him as sin and the world turned dark. In this manner God was propitiated for the sins of men and his wrath against sin was executed and he was no longer angry at sinners. Reconciliation had been made on God's part because SIN HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY and personal sins are not imputed to the sinner while he lives. "For as it is appointed man once to die, but after this the judgement." Heb 9:27

Now, sinners are made a new creation in the image of Jesus Christ when they, through repentance and faith, receive the Spirit of Christ into their bodies, making them into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ while he was here on earth, body, soul, and Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We have the Spirit in vessels of clay but at the resurrection we will receive a glorified body, like unto his glorious body, and we will have the image of God, who cannot sin, restored to us. Meanwhile, when Christians die physically, we are as Jesus was until his resurrection. All three parts of man are separated. We Christians have the capacity to sin in these bodies even though the Spirit of God is in us. Jesus Christ could have sinned in his weak body but he did not. This is why God could receive his atoning sacrifice for others.

There is abundance of biblical evidence for my above conclusions but here is a couple;

Matt 1:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The points of sin are three, 1) the lust of the flesh 2) the lust of the eyes, 3) the pride of life.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is the order of the temptation of Eve and it is the order for us. It was the order for Jesus in Matt 1.

Sin is committed against God in the flesh.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Sin is deeds of the body because the flesh is weak. Jesus was in his most weakened condition when he was tempted by Satan yet he did not sin.


Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I know this is an answer around the horn but I suspect that you are attempting to justify your very false Calvinistic doctrines that can save no one but only condemn them. You will not accept any answer that does not support your preconceptions and presuppositions.

Jesus Christ the man could have sinned but God could not. In every case Jesus yielded to the Spirit who was in his body to empower him against the temptation through the flesh. This is the same Spirit who dwells in the bodies of believers of the gospel, who is given to them as the gift of God when they believe.
Errrmmmmm, Jesus never laid His deity aside. He is God clothed in flesh, His flesh masked His deity, but He never laid aside His deity. To say He did is utter heresy.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Love cannot be forced

God wanted people who would react to him with Love and willful obedience and reverence not robots or chatty Kathy dolls who would say I love you when ever the string is pulled
So you, while dead in sins came to God out of your own sincere love for Him because He doesn't want robots, but He wants the spiritually dead to do this by their own wills?

And @ReverendRV you agreed with this?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
We have the Spirit in vessels of clay but at the resurrection we will receive a glorified body, like unto his glorious body, and we will have the image of God, who cannot sin, restored to us.
“restored to us”???
When did “us” have this “”cannot sin”?
...and...
How did “us” lose this “cannot sin”?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So you, while dead in sins came to God out of your own sincere love for Him because He doesn't want robots, but He wants the spiritually dead to do this by their own wills?

And @ReverendRV you agreed with this?
I was playing Devil's Advocate. Over time, you'll get used to me. In a way, it was meant for Sketo, not TomL...

No need to explain it, just let it ride...
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So you, while dead in sins came to God out of your own sincere love for Him because He doesn't want robots, but He wants the spiritually dead to do this by their own wills?

And @ReverendRV you agreed with this?
Again what does the metaphor dead mean

Think prodigal son dead not Lazarus dead
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Again what does the metaphor dead mean

Think prodigal son dead not Lazarus dead
No I'm thinking Lazarus dead.

Let's see here:

You think it is unfair God allowed the fall to render fallen man unable to respond to God. ✔

You also think it is unfair that God makes men willing because that makes them robots. ✔

You don't believe God when He says we aren't saved via our wills. ✔

You don't believe Christ when He says no one can come to Him. ✔

No matter what God says about man being unable, and not saved by will or decision, you say he is anyhow. ✔

It is apparent your "gospel" is contrary to biblical revelation. ✔
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No I'm thinking Lazarus dead.

Well the bible never use Lazarus as an example of the spiritually dead



Let's see here:

You think it is unfair God allowed the fall to render fallen man unable to respond to God. ✔

You also think it is unfair that God makes men willing because that makes them robots. ✔

You don't believe God when He says we aren't saved via our wills. ✔

You don't believe Christ when He says no one can come to Him. ✔

No matter what God says about man being unable, and not saved by will or decision, you say he is anyhow. ✔

It is apparent your "gospel" is contrary to biblical revelation. ✔

Wrong

I never stated a word about allowing the fall

and if you are going to propagate meticulous determination of all thing you need a word other than allow

And I never objected to God making men wiling

I did however speak of God unilaterally irresistably making men willing

and as I explauned no one believes they are saved by their wqill

No one can will themselves saved

And Christ does not say no one can come to him

not only do you misquote the verse you ignore the historical context of before the cross

after the cross

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
 

Sketo

Well-known member
When God created Adam with the ability to sin, unlike God, did God create Adam with that specific ability for a purpose?

In other words what is Gods specific purpose in creating Adam with the ability to sin?
...
Again you ask for speculation
Does the Bible not teach that Adam had the ability to sin?
Does the Bible not teach that God created Adam?

Why do you claim speculation here?

as he does not share it
“he does not share” Adam sinned and God created him???

So would you like a speculative answer
Is a “speculative answer” all you are able to give???
 
T

TomFL

Guest
...

Does the Bible not teach that Adam had the ability to sin?
Does the Bible not teach that God created Adam?

Why do you claim speculation here?

because you ask why God created him that way

and the bible does not say

what is not clear ?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
When God created Adam with the ability to sin, unlike God, did God create Adam with that specific ability for a purpose?

In other words what is Gods specific purpose in creating Adam with the ability to sin?
Like I had said in my previous post, the words “ability” or “inability” to sin is the wrong vocabulary to use. God made man a free moral agent, with the ability to make moral choices and decisions. He also gave them commandments and laws so they know what is the good and right thing to do, and what he expects from them. He also allowed Satan to tempt them so they have a choice to make between good and evil. You ask, what is God’s design and purpose in creating such an order of affairs? The answer is given in the Bible as follows:

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


That is the answer to your question.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Well the bible never use Lazarus as an example of the spiritually dead





Wrong

I never stated a word about allowing the fall

and if you are going to propagate meticulous determination of all thing you need a word other than allow

And I never objected to God making men wiling

I did however speak of God unilaterally irresistibly making men willing

and as I explained no one believes they are saved by their will

No one can will themselves saved

And Christ does not say no one can come to him

not only do you misquote the verse you ignore the historical context of before the cross

after the cross

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”Continued
Continued

No matter what God says about man being unable, and not saved by will or decision, you say he is anyhow. ✔

already addressed being saved by will

You simply fail to realize salvation is one act faith another and confound them

It is apparent your "gospel" is contrary to biblical revelation. ✔

You fail to show that

Every Salvation particular is preceded by faith in the bible

forgiveness of sin - faith/repentance

justification - faith

reception of the spirit - faith

regeneration - faith

salvation - faith

becoming a child of God - faith

If anyone has a different gospel it would be you
 

Sketo

Well-known member
John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


That is the answer to your question.
Not quite.

God made man a free moral agent, with the ability to make moral choices and decisions.
Good...
He also gave them commandments and laws so they know what is the good and right thing to do, and what he expects from them.
Good...
He also allowed Satan to tempt them so they have a choice to make between good and evil.
God allowed Satan to tempt them... Interesting... why Satan?... were the trees not enough choice?

I wonder how they would have done if God wouldn’t have “allowed” Satan to tempt them?
 
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