Sketo
Well-known member
Maybe so but you have agreed that he could have created him not that way.
Which means his creating was intentionally that way!
We are getting there...
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
Which means his creating was intentionally that way!
T
TomFL
Guest
So do you have a point
zerinus
Well-known member
Two issues with that: (1) I was referring to mankind in general, not just to Adam. (2) If Adam and Eve had not been tempted by the devil, it is almost certain that they would not have eaten of the fruit, since God had already commanded them not to. They had no reason to disobey.
Sketo
Well-known member
...
Do you think God was aware of what would happen when he allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?
Sketo
Well-known member
Next God chose to place Adam in the Garden of Eden, and with the knowledge of how he intentionally created Adam, gave him options and consequences for those options!
Now you have “intentionally-created-that-way” Adam in the Garden with, God-intentionally-designed, options and consequences!
Then God intentionally made Eve from Adam’s rib!
So we have...
intentionally-created-that-way Adam, in Gods
intentionally-designed Garden, with
intentionally-designed options and consequences, then
intentionally-made-that-way Eve
Why allow Satan in the Garden, immutably, knowing the outcome of this decision???
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zerinus
Well-known member
Yes, God is omniscient, and has foreknowledge of all future events, including the fall of Adam and Eve. But that does not mean that he had predestined and predetermined the choices and decisions that they would make.
Sketo
Well-known member
zerinus
Well-known member
Scratching my head! I looked for a good emotion for scratching my head, and couldn't find one. Maybe someone should contact the manufacturer of the forum software and tell them to include a good emotion for scratching my head!
zerinus
Well-known member
Because the purpose of this present creation is to test mankind to see if they would be faithful and obedient to God and to his commandments or not:
John 5:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
God entices them to do good, and Satan entices them to do evil. That enables them to have a choice, so they can decide for themselves which way they want to go, and ultimately be rewarded or punished accordingly. If the temptations of the devil didn't exist, that choice wouldn't exist either, and they could not exercise such choice. The good news is that the present condition will not last very long, and we will all soon enter into the next phase of our existence which will be permanent, and “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” This present mortal condition is a test, a trial, to see who would choose good and who would choose evil, who would choose God and who would choose Satan, so they can receive their rewards accordingly.
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zerinus
Well-known member
Meant to say “emoticon,” But too late to change it!
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
zerinus
Well-known member
I know there are lots of them on the Internet, but the forum software doesn't include on in their list of (small) emotions.
Sketo
Well-known member
This does not answer why allow Satan into the Garden?
Was the “present creation” of the Garden not sufficient “to test mankind” without Satan?
The Garden, Adam, Eve, Tree of Life, Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, command, consequences... seams sufficient in-and-of-itself to “test mankind to see if they would be faithful and obedient to God and to his commandments or not”... so why allow Satan?
So... why allow Satan?
Do you think God was aware of what would happen when he allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?
So... why allow Satan?
zerinus
Well-known member
It does.
No, an opposition was required, and that was provided by Satan.
Wrong, see above.
Already answered.
Already answered.
Already answered.
Sketo
Well-known member
“provided...... by Satan”???
....
Why was “opposition required”?
Who “required” it?
Seems rather “meticulous”... don’t ya think?
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zerinus
Well-known member
So that man can be tested and tried to see he would choose good or evil, and be rewarded accordingly.
God did.
No idea why you would think that.
Sketo
Well-known member
“to see” equates to lack of foreknowledge but you have already admitted...
... I rest my case!
“No idea”???... Seriously... what do you think this whole conversation has been leading to???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...
forums.carm.org
zerinus
Well-known member
Foreknowledge is not an issue here. You are looking at it through your tainted Calvinistic lenses. The Bible teaches that God will someday judge people according to their works (good or bad) and reward them accordingly. That is written all over the Bible. God doesn’t judge people according to his foreknowledge of how they will act, but according to the reality of how they have acted:
John 5:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It doesn‘t say that he will judge them according to his “foreknowledge,” but what they have actually done. And the temptations of the devil is required for them to be able to make that choice or decision. Job is a good example. God allowed Satan to tempt Job to prove his integrity and righteousness, and he passed the test. Did God know beforehand in his foreknowledge that Job would pass the test? Of course he did! But he still have to put him through the test. That applies to all of us, not just Job.
brightfame52
Well-known member
So what is it to have done good?
zerinus
Well-known member
The answer is given in these verses:
Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
These verses tell you what it means to “have done good”.