ziapueblo
Active member
This so true!
From the Eastern Orthodox point of view, John 3 and being born again of "water and Spirit" have everything to do with baptism.
Does it prove that apostoles preached baptism for salvation?
- Thread starter valtteri21
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From the Eastern Orthodox point of view, John 3 and being born again of "water and Spirit" have everything to do with baptism.
The Spiritual adoption does not come without the Baptism of the Spirit and by fire. The Water Baptism is the culmination of the Gospel of repentance. If a man has not repented according to the laws of repentance he is not forgiven. He is still in the Gospel of Repentance until he fulfill the laws of it. Regardless of what he profess. The Gospel of Repentance is actually a contract from God to man on what men have to do in order to receive the promise of Forgiveness from God. That is all there is to it. If God wishes to put away someone sins (putting away sins is not forgiveness) in order to deal with him for a mission he can do it. But that person has to finish his repentance before death takes him. Having your sins put away and having your sins forgiven are two different terms and God is very specific when using languages. Usually the mission will entail enough suffering that his sins be forgiven at the end of it...Like Moses who was forbidden to enter the promise land. He died without being able to set one foot in it. Paul suffered much in his mission, more than any other 2 or 3 Apostles put together for the works He did as a pharisee. Do not be deceive, though Jesus loves everyone including the sinners, the law of repentance must be fulfilled. Without fulfilling it, the debris in the fountain (heart) will cause his fountain (heart) to not be able to receive water (love of God) because it is too rocky. What good does it serve a sinner if he cannot receive the pure love of God that is shed in the hearts of everyone? Repentance is making clean the fountain so the flow of love of God in our heart can help the quench the thirst of all those who will come to our fountain. The little bit of suffering we must endure even after receiving forgiveness of sins, is to fulfill this law, to do unto others as one would like others to do to us. Transgressing the laws of God is usually about hurting others either in the flesh or hurting them spiritually so according to the law at least a little bit of the hurt we cause others to feel must come our way. Full repentance allows God to mitigate suffering by his Mercy. Mercy does not abolish any law. It allows God to change the fullness of what we deserve.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Mean: that which through an end is accomplished, for example, faith or trust is the method or mean by which men receive the grace or unmerited favor of God
2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. -KJV
Continuing on, Nicodemus continues to misundersand Jesus, so He then says to him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." John 3:10-11 -KJV
Nic should have understood. The "we" that speak of what they know and testify of what they have seen refers to Jesus and John the baptist. We know this from following the context of John's Gospel. Chapter 1 introduces the incarnate Lord, His prophet John, his baptism from God of water and the Spirit, and his witness of these things.
Some people mistakenly understand that John saying he baptizes with water means his baptism doesn't include the Spirit, but that is a misreading. For eample, he was told that the One upon whom the Spirit descends and remains is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Unlike John and the rest of the gang, Jesus is the one who sends the Spirit at his will rather than with the water. (Not coincidentally, on the third day after His baptism by John Jesus is at the wedding feast.)
There may be a vocal minority who think the above isn't or can't be true but Jesus removes all doubt in Matthew 21:25-32. While reasoning with the chief priests and elders in the temple about John's baptism He asks them about a Father with two sons and which of those sons did the will of the father? They correctly answer that it was the second son who said he wouldn't do it but later did.
Jesus then tied the question to John and the publicans and harlots vs the chief priests and elders. Jesus said the publican and Harlots enter (P-A-I) the kingdom of God before the chief priests and elders. And just like in His explanation regarding the wind and the Spirit to Nic in John 3:8 the chief priests and elders saw and could sense what was happening but they still did not repent and believe John.
UncleAbee
Active member
What this shows is that the early Christians thought that water baptism was necessary towards salvation. The idea of "faith alone" was non-existent and a much later developed idea.
Theo1689
Well-known member
With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)
“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)
“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)
“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)
“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)
“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)
“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)
“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)
“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)
“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)
"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux, First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)
“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
ziapueblo
Active member
The Orthodox response is that we believe that we are saved by "life in Christ," which includes grace as the initiator, faith as our response and good deeds as the fruit. It is very clear that the Bible speaks about the importance of "grace" and "faith," as well passages that speak on the importance of "good deeds."
The early fathers wrote on the importance of all three; grace, faith and good deed. I agree with you, not any one of these "alone."
UncleAbee
Active member
The majority of your quotes are late (around AD 400 and later). The majority of thought amongst early christians (AD 30 to AD 200) is that baptism was essential to salvation. Faith alone for salvation came much later. Research Christian though on salvation from AD 200 and prior.
Go further back in the New Testament for that answer.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
God saves those who believe. Water baptism is just an ordinance for new believers to follow, but they were saved before water baptism.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Um, I quoted Clement from the first century.
How incredibly disingenuous for you to ignore that.
Then how did Clement know about it?
The point is theology is determined by Scripture, not by later Christians. The ECF's had various positions on many topics, and are therefore unreliable. But we do see "faith alone" taught in the early church.
If you want to deny that, then you reject ECF's as authoritative.
The Bible teaches "Faith alone".
The early church taught "faith alone".
UncleAbee
Active member
IN AD 325 the 1st Nicene creed was written. In it, it says "We confess one baptism to the remission of sins;" This was the opinion of the church at that time. Other quotes below.
Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).Origen
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).The earliest Christian teaching on baptism is that it is necessary towards the forgiveness of sin. Faith alone came much later. 1 Clement is an outlier if he believed baptism was not essential.
Theo1689
Well-known member
You can believe whatever you wish.
The problem with the ECF's is that their writings are so voluminous and so contradictory that anyone can use them to "prove" anything (which is why Romanists, Mormons, and JW's constantly try to appeal to them).
But I will continue to believe the Bible, which predates ANY ECF.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
The quote here from Paul is that the human doing the immersing is not important, not that being immersed is not important. Paul taught all about immersion in almost all of his letters (Romans 6; Gal. 3; Ephesians 4; etc.). People who believe are saved because they follow through with what God taught them to. Their belief is made alive through action and that's when they are saved. Faith alone is dead.
Believe unto. Confess unto. Repent unto (2 Cor. 7:10). But immersion actually saves (1 Pet. 3:21). It's when we have our sins washed away (Acts 22:16). When we receive the Holy Spirit's gift (Acts 2:38). When we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). When we are freed from sin (Romans 6:16-18). Belief, confession, and repentance are unto - they are steps on the journey and prerequisites to, but they are not the point one is saved. I can't travel TO a place I'm already at. Those who believe have the power to become sons of God (John 1:12) but having that power and choosing to use it to actually become sons of God by obedience to God's will are two different things.
In this very passage that you quote, verse 16 speaks of "obeying the gospel" and ties it in with the rest of what true, living faith means. Faith alone is dead and cannot save you. Obedient faith is demanded by God.
You and others keep asserting this, but its not taught anywhere in scripture.
You - Belief saves before water immersion and without it.
Peter - immersion doth also now save you.
Total contradiction.
In Truth and Love.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Baptism is a gift from God which was freely given to man for His name's sake in fulfillment of His promise.
Since it is a freely given gift based on His promise it can only be rightfully received by man through faith alone.
Then explain how the Gentiles were saved just by hearing Peter's words? They had received the promise of the Holy Spirit before they had confessed Him, before they had come forward, and before they had been water baptized.
You cannot therefore it is time to address this wrong application of faith without works. James was rebuking the church for misapplying faith in God's providence in getting out of helping the poor after church service. They had the remains form the bounty collected and could have met their immediate needs and show that God has provided enough so that what was left over for the church to run on.
From the beginning of the chapter to the end, James was rebuking the church for mistreating the poor. James reference to Abraham & Isaac was about Jevhovah-jireh as in "God provides for His servants". So faith in God's Providence should be led by example, because it is in the eyes of the poor that church's faith in God's providence is dead and will not profit the poor nor save the poor from starvation nor the elements.
It was never about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation for that is without works.
Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Paul said there is only one gospel and he was given the right hand of fellowship with James, John, & Cephas or Peter.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.Which leads to James rebuking a church for the mistreatment of the poor, even applying faith in God's providence to provide for them just to get out of helping the poor in meeting their immediate need from the bounty collected after church service.
There is no way you can apply faith with works being dead in regards to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation because James was not talking about that kind of faith.
No way, brother. Obeying the gospel is believing in Him as they make that distinction as to how unbelievers are not saved are those who do not believe the gospel. Even Jesus said this;
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is taught in scripture but you seem to think Jesus did not really meant that.
There is another one you are misapplying there, but only Jesus can help you see this truth in Peter's words.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Take it apart...
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" = that is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit at our salvation when we believe in Jesus Christ.
"(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, " that is what water does in putting away the filth of the flesh hence not water baptism.
"but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" which is to believe in Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead.
I do thank you for taking time out, brother, but this is the truth in His words, but only Jesus can help you see the truth. I see it, thanks to Him.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Yes, but it is worth pointing out where they were consistent with Scripture.
UncleAbee
Active member
I am just giving you what the majority of early Christians practiced and believed. For the most part they thought baptism was essential to salvation. Faith alone is a later development. Even Jesus thought certain works were necessary towards salvation based on the early sources (Mark, Q, M, L).
UncleAbee
Active member
1 Peter 3:21 says no such thing. It plainly states that "baptism doth also now save us." The english version says "baptism now saves you." The meaning is plain. Baptism saves. 1 Peter 3 doesn't allude to the HS in any way. I am not sure how you are seeing this.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Um, the actual CONTEXT of that passage has Peter DENYING that he's referring to water baptism ("not the removal of dirt from the body").
Theo1689
Well-known member
"Majority"?
You mean, as in "for the gate is wide that leads to destruction"?
THAT "majority"?
As I've already demonstrated, you are wrong.
As I've already demonstrated, you are wrong.
You are being willingly ignorant.
That's simply false.
Mark never teaches that Jesus taught works were necessary for salvation.
And I hate to break it to you, but "Q" doesn't even exist.
It's a hypothetical "document" that has no existence in reality.
Do you acknowledge that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirt which comes at our salvation moment when we believe in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?
Then how do you know that is NOT the baptism Peter was referring to since he bothered to explain "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" which is what water does, but rather a good conscience towards God to the resurrection of Jesus Christ which is by believing in Him?
All the words of that verse points to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation when we had believed in Him and away from water baptism.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Jesus baptized us with the Holy Ghost when we had first believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel. That is how Jesus saves rather than water baptism.