UncleAbee
Active member
I do not. I don't know of any bible passage that states this.
Peter clearly says "baptism now saves you" and there is no mention of the HS in the entire passage.
Again ... I see no mention of the HS in 1 Peter ch 3.
Does it prove that apostoles preached baptism for salvation?
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UncleAbee
Active member
I think there is good evidence that Q existed. There are exact passages that Matthew and Luke use that are not found in Mark. This is Q. Matthew and Luke both used Mark as a source for their gospel because there are verbatim passages between the 3. This is why they are called the synoptic gospels. Matthew and Luke also have their own sources (M & L). These sources are the earliest ones we have. Luke used sources. He tells you this in Luke 1:1-4. In the early sources Jesus preached that certain works were necessary towards salvation. John is a different work that was written around the turn of the 1st century.
The majority of early Christians believed that baptism was necessary. I agree this majority could have been wrong. I am just telling you what the early Christians who were closer to Christ's teachings believed. Faith alone is a later development.
Theo1689
Well-known member
I'm familiar with the rationalization.
Q is a figment of your imagination.
1) I don't accept your unsubstantiated claim.
2) Even if your claim were true, it is the logical fallacy of "appeal to majority". I'll stick with the Bible.
And you have no clue what you're talking about, as I've already proven to you.
The ECF's contradict you.
And the Bible contradicts you.
I'm sorry that you're unwilling to learn.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
They were not saved "just by hearing Peter's words". They were saved when they were immersed in water, just like everyone else. If you read the context of Acts 10-11 thoroughly, you will see that they received the Holy Ghost (supernatural, immediate, personal indwelling) before they even had faith because it was as Peter began speaking, not after he had finished (Acts 11:15). So they hadn't even heard, hadn't believed, hadn't confessed, hadn't repented, had been immersed, yet received the Holy Ghost directly, without the laying on of the Apostle's hands. Why?
To show that the choice to offer repentance and salvation to the Gentiles was God's idea, not man's. (Acts 10:45-47; Acts 11:18).
Since the rest of your comments are based on a false premise, that I cannot explain, the arguments based on that false premise are also necessarily incorrect. However, I will respond nonetheless.
You assert this, but James clearly states in the immediate context that faith requires works to save (James 2:24) and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). It's explicit, direct, unequivocal that faith alone, that is, faith without works is dead. Those who believe they are saved by faith alone believe they are, by definition, saved by a dead faith. Why? Because that's what faith alone is. Dead. If you believe you are saved by faith alone and faith alone is a dead faith, then you believe you are saved by a dead faith. There is no getting past this.
The works in these passages are specifically the works of the law of Moses and have nothing to do with works of obedience to Christ. Paul and James are talking about two entirely different kinds of works.
There is only one faith (Eph. 4:5). Either James was talking about the one faith or he was wrong in what he said. The only other kind of faith there is besides the one faith that saves is a dead faith.Paul said there is only one gospel and he was given the right hand of fellowship with James, John, & Cephas or Peter.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Which leads to James rebuking a church for the mistreatment of the poor, even applying faith in God's providence to provide for them just to get out of helping the poor in meeting their immediate need from the bounty collected after church service.
There is no way you can apply faith with works being dead in regards to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation because James was not talking about that kind of faith.
You can dismiss those verses, but that is not the same thing as dealing with them.
This is in harmony with the passages I listed about immersion. Belief + obedience is fine. Your position is Belief alone and not immersion which makes the passage here in John contradictory with all the passages I gave.
You seem to think that Jesus didn't mean all the things He had the inspired writers write in all the passages I gave you about the purpose of water immersion.
No. It is water immersion. Peter just got finished talking about the Old Testament type that was the Flood in verse 20. Water is the context, not the Holy Spirit. Noah and his family were saved from the wicked world of sin by water. The water came, fully immersed the world, destroyed the sin, and left only righteousness. The antitype of this is NT immersion, a water immersion that destroys sin (Romans 6:3-7) and leaves only righteousness by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no way to get Holy Spirit immersion from this text. Nothing in the context points to that kind of immersion.
Furthermore, Holy Spirit immersion only happened three times in scripture: Pentecost to the Apostles, by implication to Paul, and to Cornelius' household to show that the Gentiles were acceptable to God to be immersed into Christ. There are no other examples of Holy Spirit immersion in scripture and by the time Paul writes to the Ephesians, there is only one NT immersion remaining. If that one immersion is Holy Spirit immersion, there is zero point in water immersion today. If the Holy Spirit immersion is no longer taking place, having very specific purposes for taking place when it did, then only water immersion remains and it is absolutely necessary.
No. In fact, Peter has to make the distinction here because his audience is coming out of Judaism. He has to clarify that water immersion saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that it is not the ritual purification of the flesh as the washings according to Moses were. That he has to clarify that its not just a physical cleansing is more evidence that its water immersion, not evidence against it being so.
Thank you for the conversation. Hope your day is a good one.
In Truth and Love.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
I'm with Uncle Abee on this. The immersion IN the Holy Spirit has no connection to our salvation. The people in Acts 8 believed the gospel, were immersed in water for the remission of their sins, but they had to wait for Peter and John to come from Jerusalem to have the Apostles lay hands on them in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 is devastating to the idea that miraculous involvement of the Holy Spirit is tied to salvation.
Acts 19 is the same. They had only heard of John's preaching, but Paul preached the gospel to them and taught them about New Testament immersion. Then they were immersed (vs. 5) and THEN Paul lays his hands on them after and they receive the Holy Ghost. Cornelius is a special case, an exception to the norm because it was a very unique event, the Gentiles being added to the church for the first time. To make it out to be the norm is to misunderstand what was happening and its significance in Acts 10-11.
See my earlier response.
No. This is you reading your belief into the passage, my friend. You are inserting the Holy Ghost when water is the context (vs 20) and Peter has to clarify because it's water. He would not have had to clarify if the Holy Ghost was the element they were being immersed into.
In Truth and Love.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Peter told the Gentiles how to receive the remission of sins by believing in Him which was foretold by the prophets. That has to apply to the Jews as well. So water baptism was not done when these Gentiles were saved. They did not come forward nor even confess Him with their mouths yet but believed the words peter had said unto them that by believing in Him is how they can receive the remission of sins and right afterwards, they had received the promise of the Holy Spirit before Peter even mentioned that promise from God yet & way before he commanded them to be water baptized too.
That is why readers err thinking repent to the Jews was to repent from all sins when it was about repenting from unbelief by believing in Him for how they receive the promise of the Spirit aka that born again of the Spirit.. at their salvation moment.
Jesus described that moment as well.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So when Mark had written this;
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
When the separation is between those who believe and those who do not believe, then baptism with the Holy Ghost is what is referred to here rather than water baptized; otherwise it would be written those who believe and are baptized are saved but those who believe and not baptized are not saved. See? Then you would have to say this is referring to water baptism for salvation regardless if they believe or not. But since the differentiation is from those who believe from those who do not believe, then the automatic baptism with the Holy Ghost is what is referred to here rather than water baptism since it is by not believing in Him is how sinners are condemned already.
You know there is a baptism with the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment just as you know there is water baptism. So there are 2 kinds of baptism you need His help to discern which one Peter was actually referring to.
You have to prove that water is not what Peter was deferring from as being that which puts off the filth of the flesh. What else puts off the filth of the flesh?
Then you have to explain how the answer of a good conscience towards God towards the resurrection of Jesus Christ is which is to believe.
You need His help to see the truth in His words because I know what it is like to not want to believe let alone consider that I have been taught wrong by the church and people I rely on to tell me the truth when we should only rely on Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to prove all things.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.
I hope everyone that agrees with the truth I am sharing will pray for you and others that still believe otherwise since only God can case the increase.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
That tells me that the Holy Ghost fell on them that heard Peter's words. Note the reaction of the circumcision that believed for how & why they were astonished... that they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost as they had. And then Peter commanded them to be water baptized.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Explain that as I see that to mean we cannot repent from all sins when we need him in us to do that in living as His in following Him. So the only repent I see to the Jews in Acts 2 was for what they were cut to the quick for; for crucifying Him Whom they had not believed and so to repent is to believe in Him.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It is a mistake to see the commandment to be water baptized as a means to receive the remission of sins for the Jews when the Gentiles received the remission for sins plainly without water baptism by believing in Him as clearly stated.
Are there 2 gospels? No. There is only one gospel and it is the same to the Jews as well as to the Gentiles; otherwise there can be no right hand of fellowship between Paul with James, John, and Cephas or Peter. Paul could not get in Peter's face for separating himself from gentile believers when the Jewish believers came in to fellowship when there is no difference between us.
Try that again without reading it that salvation is by works.....
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
What is James saying here? That if you despise the poor and mistreat the poor, you are not saved? Why address these offenders as "my beloved brethren"? Why not simply say "You are false brethren. and thus not saved. Begone, heathen.!!!."? Is this about correction rather than judging who is saved from those that are not?
And James is not done rebuking the church for their mistreatment of the poor. James is now addressing how the church gets out of helping the poor after service by giving a benediction verbalizing their faith in God's Providence to the departing poor after church service,
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Now the question arises; save who? Himself or someone else?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Someone else. The poor. So what faith is James rebuking? The church verbalizing their faith in God's Providence to the poor that God will provide for them just to get out of helping the poor from meeting their immediate needs. Note the end of verse 16 of the question; "what doth it profit?" So what they say to the poor and yet give nothing to meet their immediate needs, what dos that profit the poor let alone save the poor from starvation and the elements when the church hardly leads by example in regards to their professed faith in His Providence.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Now James refer to that story that all Jews are well aware of .. or at least should be when God tempted Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Isaac. Hear what Abraham said to Isaac's question.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
The meaning of the place is the moral of the story that the Lord will provide. What Does It Mean that God Is Jehovah-Jireh?
So if a church verbalize their faith in God providing, then they should lead by example by meeting the immediate needs of the poor.
That faith in the Lord providing is not the same as that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.
James was not talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ, but the faith in the Lord providing which the church was trying to get out of by citing their faith in the Lord's providence and yet not lead by example only because they wanted to get out of helping the poor in desperate need.
Running that race aka discipleship is not about obtaining salvation; otherwise we are not saved yet since that race needs to be run every day. It is because we are saved and Christ Jesus is in us is how we can follow Him by faith. Therefore, water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow after they have been saved by believing in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and the promise of the Holy Ghost; hence born again of the Spirit.
I believe there are plenty of verses on how believing in Jesus Christ is how we are saved & not believing in Him is how sinners were condemned already for not believing the name of the only begotten Son of God.
But Noah and his family were in the ark; not in the water nor immersed under the water.
The ark being Jesus Christ is our escae and the immersion is the baptism with the Holy Ghost as given by baptism by Jesus Christ for believing in Him.
Jesus explained to Nicodemus when one gets born again of the Spirit and it would be after His ascension, after His crucifixion when any one that believes in Him shall be saved and so that salvation moment began with His disciples at Pentecost & not before so they share same testimony along with other new believers at Pentecost and afterwards that they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.
John 3: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Now if water baptism was necessary for salvation, then we could tell when and how one was born again of the Spirit, but He said no.
Paul said no too.
Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
If one was to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, then to prevent future believers into looking to an outward appearance to people as proof of salvation, then belief in Jesus Christ is how God is pleased to save those who believe. Remember the Jews who sought to escape by outward appearance in getting the water baptism of John the Baptist's and yet John rebuked them for it, to seek repentance as fruit of?
Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;.....7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, ..........
So there is no chance of that happening with believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ then or now when sinners seek to be saved rather than be tempted to show by appearance of being righteous when they seek to do water baptism or hide behind it to continue being sinful in the inside.
God knows who is seeking Him from those that are not for why those who prefer their evil deeds would rather than come to the light to be reproved of them, then they would not come to the light to believe in Him to be saved, but they may come to public water baptism to give an appearance of seeking to be righteous.
John the Baptist provided the way for the Lord as a methodology with water baptism of repentance for remission of sins where by believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Thank you, brother Kade. I can only hope the Lord is ministering in this iron sharpen iron exchange since neither you nor I can cause the increase when it is on God to do it.
In Christ's Love, I do share the truth in His words, but only He can help you see that..
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
You did not respond to the point I made.
Romans 11:29 is talking about God repenting. God gave gifts to all mankind, particularly saving grace (His Son) and He will not repent of that, will not change His mind about that and withdraw that gift. God is not a man that He ought to repent (Num. 23:19). Romans 11:29 has nothing to do with man's repentance.
You assert this, but that is the thing you have to show and you have not shown. Remission of sins is never plainly stated as without water baptism or by believing in Him alone. Even the passage you quote above from Acts 2 shows that baptism was part of it. You didn't highlight the baptism part for some reason that I do not want to assume. Even if Peter were talking about a personal, direct, supernatural indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this context, they had to repent and be baptized to receive Him. Repentance and baptism are conditions stated in the very text you quote.
Agreed. One gospel, one immersion. Water immersion is what is commanded and must be obeyed from the heart (Romans 6:16-18). Immersion IN the Holy Spirit is not something that cannot be obeyed because we cannot command God.
But that's the point. I believe salvation requires works of obedience. You aren't conversing with someone who has an aversion to works or thinks that works are somehow icky with regard to salvation. I fully embrace the idea that salvation requires works on the part of the one beings saved.
That one word in James 2:14, that one question shows that your entire argument is invalid. James is absolutely talking about salvation here. "Can faith save him?" Whatever else the context may be (and for the most part, I agree with you), he is talking about faith and its relationship to salvation. Then, in verse 24 he concludes that a man is justified (saved) by works and not by faith only.
I'm sorry, but this is really stretching for it. The answer is, save himself.
I'm sorry but there is only one faith and one immersion just as there is only one Lord (Eph. 4:4-5). Preaching two different faiths is contrary to what the Bible explicitly says.
In Truth and Love.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
Already addressed this.
I do not believe in Eternal Security/OSAS, so I believe that yes, salvation is something we must work to hold on to. If we rebel against God and walk away from Him again, then our relationship with Him is no longer good and we become separated from Him by sin again.
You still are not addressing the actual verses that I posted on immersion.
Yes. The ark represents Noah's obedient faith. But the passage clearly says that it was the water that saved them. If you are going to argue that the ark did the saving, then you are arguing that man saves himself without God. If we properly understand that the ark represents man's obedient faith to God but the water, sent by God to destroy sin and cleanse the world, is what actually saved Noah and his family from sin, then it is properly understood that God does the saving. 1 Peter 3:20 is the absolute perfect picture of how God's grace and man's obedient faith operate together.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is represented in the ark in this passage?
Jesus didn't say no. He said water. It's right there in verses 3-5. To enter the kingdom, one must be reborn? Reborn how? Of water and S/spirit. You removed the water from the context.
Paul did not say "no" to water immersion here. Just because a thing is not mentioned in a passage doesn't mean that the passage is denying the necessity of that thing. Romans 8:24 says we are saved by hope and does not mention faith. Does that mean that we only have to hope and don't have to believe? Of course not. When we want to know something about a topic, salvation for instance, we take ALL of what the Bible has to say about it, not just the verses we want. I believe faith is required for salvation. I also believe that hearing the gospel (Rom. 10:17; James 1:21), repenting of my sins (Acts 2:38; 2 Cor. 7:10), confessing my faith in Christ (Matt. 10:32; Romans 10:10) , being immersed in water (1 Pet. 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Romans 6 and all those other passages you haven't addressed), and living faithfully till death (Rev. 2:10) are required. I am in harmony with scripture. You reject all the passages listed in the sentence preceding the last. I'm not adding anything to the scriptures. You are taking away from them.
This does not demand the conclusion you have presented and you still have not addressed those specific verses on immersion.
He does...through the Word.
In Truth and Love.
UncleAbee
Active member
The HG falling on them doesn't mean they were saved. Where does the passage state they were saved? The HG also fell in Acts ch 2 but no one was saved until they were baptized. If they were saved then why get baptized in v 48?
Jesus also commanded the baptism of disciples in Matt 28:19. How can belief be enough when Jesus also commands baptism?
Again there is no mention of HG baptism in this passage. Also you are discounting "believeth and is baptized shall be saved ..." The conditions for salvation are right there.
Two baptisms? What does Eph 4:5 say?
You misunderstand 1 Peter 3:21. The first statement is that baptism saves (baptism now saves you). The second part is telling you how baptism saves you. You are not saved by what you physically see (physical act of getting wet). You are saved by responding in obedience to Christ's commands which gives you a good conscience.
UncleAbee
Active member
We'll just have to disagree then. Luke tells you he used sources in Luke 1:1-4. It is not beyond the pale to believe that Matthew and Mark used sources as well especially when there is so much verbatim agreement in the text. Somebody was copying someone else.
I was showing scripture that was refuting the point you had made.
Considering the context of the message where Israel was found in unbelief for why the message went out to the Gentiles in how they are saved by believing in Him... I am not sold on that since Jews were trying to save themselves by works and now Gentiles are saved without works.
The reason I did not highlight it is to show how the Gentiles had received the remission of sins by believing in Him in Acts 10 so that repentance in Acts 2 was from unbelief, not by water baptism. There cannot be 2 gospels and how the Gentiles were really saved shows how Acts 2 event was misread & therefore misapplied as to how remission of sins was received. Now read His words, leaning on Christ that you want the truth here. Look at verse 43 in the end of Peter's speech on how to receive the remission of sins by believing in Him as prophesied by the prophets.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
That was before water baptism and there is no haggling nor wiggle room for water baptism as necessary for salvation for the Gentiles; then the same has to be for the Jews, because there is only one gospel.
Obeying from the heart by believing in Him is that form of doctrine spoken of and by having been delivered from that bondage to sin does not negate His disciples in teaching new believers His commandments and it isn't just to get water baptized afterwards. They had to tell Gentile believers these things, so let's be real about how we are saved and it is by believing in Him.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
So did the Gentiles repented from all sin? No. But His disciples did teach all His commandments to new believers after they were saved because with Him in them, they have power to repent from sin as they can look to Him daily to help them lay aside every weight & sin.
So when a sinner is dying on his death bed, no point sharing the gospel to him since he can do no work? I think not.
If you are straining to keep your church's teaching, then you are doing it in offending His words and thus Him.
Jesus saves; not man saves himself. Either Jesus is the Savior or man is his own savior.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Reread our faith in Jesus Christ in how He will present us faultless.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
I see no mention of water baptism here.
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Not by water baptism but by faith in Jesus Christ in how we had received the promise of the spirit by faith at our salvation.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Now having been saved, is the race begun as it continues by faith in helping us to follow him and that includes new believers getting water baptized in following Him as His disciples when opportunity and availability has arisen.
You certainly did not walk it through the scripture as I have but just referring to your belief.
Well, that is where you are in error, dear brother. Once bought and sealed as His, that foundation laid by Jesus Christ can never be removed. If someone defiles the temple of God, they are at risk of being left behind to incur a physical death but their spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 Proof that even after being denied by Him, He still abides in former believers in verse 13 of this necessity to call those lost to repent or else be left behind as damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House. In verses 24-26, we see God may recover those snared by teh devil so the lost are still His. 2 Timothy 2:10-26
I'd rather you be led by the Lord to read those scripture at bible gateway rather than copy & paste it out and not read them as is per your belief..
That is your belief you are reading
Water was referring to natural birth as the former way of being a art of the kingdom of heaven by bloodline. See John 1:12-13 for the departure from it.
I know it is hard to accept that your church and your favorite teachers and leaders have led you astray, but they are not your Good Shepherd. Jesus Christ is. So ask Him in all fairness to help you see if anything is missing or being overlooked because I am saying to you, you are.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
You showed me scripture to refute scripture? I'm confused.
You are leaving off Paul's modifier of works in his letters. Works of the law. The Jews wanted to be saved by works of the old Mosaical Law which could not save. It could only condemn. Paul's point about Abraham, which the Jews were also bragging about is that Abraham was saved outside of the law of Moses. He lived before it was written! The Gentiles are saved the same way, by a living faith outside of the law of Moses.
There are four kinds of works and you have to use the context to determine which kind is being spoken of.
This passage does not say "only believeth in him" or "whosever only has faith". You have to use all passages that speak of remission of sins, not just one. Acts 10:43 and Acts 22:16 are both true.
No. In the context of Romans 6, the form of doctrine spoken of was baptism.
And confessing, and repenting, and being immersed in water. Doing ALL thing things the Bible says are necessary to be saved, not just one thing and leaving the rest out.
This gets beyond the point of our discussion.
Situation ethics.
Ad hominem.
Agreed. Jesus saved us by dying for us and then giving us instructions on what to do about it. We either follow the instructions or we remain lost.
Four kinds of works. These verses are talking about works of the law of Moses.
As always, you have to keep reading:
Col. 2:12-13 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Keep reading.
Gal 3:24-27 - "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
It's all connected.
Excellent verses.
Not actually verses.
Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
Deleted the parts where you dismissed what I said by saying "well that's your belief." If I said that every time you posted substance, this conversation wouldn't go anywhere.
No. Jesus is not referring to physical birth in this passage. He is talking about rebirth and only rebirth. Nicodemus understood that it was about rebirth, but was confused because he thought Jesus was talking about physical rebirth which is not physically possible. Jesus, in talking only about rebirth speaks of rebirth of water and spirit.
Condescending ad hominem.
ziapueblo
Active member
Agreed, ". . . not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God." As St. Paul writes in his epistle to Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5, born again of water and spirit)."
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Because it is a commandment for new believers to do in following Him as His disciples.
If a sinner was about to die on their death bed or in a traumatic event, they can call on the name of the Lord to be saved. Indeed, if he or she could not speak due to an injury or being a mute, His hand is not shortened that He cannot save even those who believe even in His name.
You keep ignoring the existence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment which is the tradition taught of us.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The one regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit? What about Him? You are only proving my point.
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Are you reading this? Or is your church's teaching making you gloss over them as if there is no baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation moment?
Believers have been saved without water baptism when they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; not by water baptism.
It is your teaching that applied the verses before 1 Corinthians 1:17-18, & 21 without reading how Paul did not stress the importance of water baptism, but preaching the gospel so that when any one believes in Him, God saves them. That is how Paul testified to how he was saved when he first believed.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Not save them that get water baptized, but save them that believe in the preaching of the cross whereby the promise of the Spirit is sent by the Father as Jesus baptized new believers with the Holy Spirit; hence Jesus saved us as this baptism of the Holy Spirit saves us.
UncleAbee
Active member
I am asking you where in Acts ch 10-11 does it say that the falling of the HG equaled salvation? You are pulling in a verse from another book addressing a different issue and in a different context. You continue to do this throughout the remainder of the points you write as well.
Since scripture cannot go against scripture, then you are misapplying scripture for what is meant.
Nothing at that thread can be in alignment with these scriptures below.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Works has nothing to do with salvation, but it is profitable unto men for following Him.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Again, you infer water baptism when calling on the Lord is how they receive remission of sins or the washing away of sins. The fact that Gentiles were saved before water baptism is proof that is how you rightly divide the word of truth. Cause = action. Believe in Him = salvation.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Are we baptized by the earth and thus raised from the earth? Then do consider the baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Think about that for a moment. To do all thing the Bible says in order for us to be saved... so when are you saved since you still have to do all good things in order to be saved? Don't we need Him in us so we have power to follow Him? Yes. Then believing in Him is all that is required to be saved but discipleship requires us applying faith in Him to help us lay aside every weight& sin daily which is what running that race is all about and since He is in us and within us always, we have confidence in Him to finish His work in us to His glory so trust in Him today.
Otherwise. running that race to obtain salvation is denying Him as your Savior that He has saved you since you had first believed in Him.
Not sure why you seem to think Jesus is the Good News if you believe you still have to do all the Bible says & keep on doing it in order to be saved. We should be able to run that race with joy knowing we are saved and believing him to be our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.
Not really because of what I had quoted you just prior in saying. The Gentiles were given the simplicity of the gospel. You saw all that Peter had said to them in Acts; Gentiles do not know about Judaism. By the law, they do not know their sins, but they know they need Jesus as their Saviour. Do you see Peter going down the list of the law to convict Gentile sinners of their need for Jesus so they can repent from all sin before coming to & believing in Jesus Christ? No, because they would never be able to repent from all sin before they feel free to come to Him & believe in him to be saved when sin has dominion over their lives. If they could repent from all sins, they would not need Him then.
Those who call upon the name of the Lord are calling them to save them from their sins too.
Is that you saying you cannot tough that?
That was a question, brother, so hardly addressing you but your position as in your belief in relations of your church's teaching to His words.
There is a difference between instructions on how we are saved and instructions for new believers to do as His disciples in following Him.
Refuted only because works has nothing to do with how we are saved by grace through faith.
We are not baptized by the earth so it is the baptism of the Holy Spirt.
Baptized INTO Christ is the baptism with the Holy Ghost. Being baptized in His name is water baptism.
Your church's teachings do it by assumption when disregarding the other baptism with the Holy Ghost that occurs at our salvation moment hence born again of the Spirit.
And yet water baptism wasn't mentioned.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
It is the summary of the truths I have shared by His grace & by His help.
Now having been saved, is the race begun as it continues by faith in helping us to follow Him and that includes new believers getting water baptized in following Him as His disciples when opportunity and availability has arisen.
That means the convert on the street is saved but he is to be commanded to be water baptized in following Him as His disciples when opportunity arises be it next Sunday at your church or whenever. If he dies before that time, he is still saved.
I recall one time someone sharing that a man died while under during his water baptism. So.. is he saved or not since the water baptism was not complete in raising him up above the water as breathing? I am sure his family members would want to know so be careful how you reply since I am not sure if that was shared here in this forum or somewhere else, not to mention He will know how you answer that one in representing Him.