Does it prove that apostoles preached baptism for salvation?

[Hark]

Deleted the parts where you dismissed what I said by saying "well that's your belief." If I said that every time you posted substance, this conversation wouldn't go anywhere.

I do not believe it is unreasonable for you to walk through James chapter 2 as I have, to show or prove your application of His words as being correct. That is why I said you addressed that chapter in according to your belief rather than walking it through from verse 1 for what James was talking about and how he was rebuking that church for.... the mistreatment of the poor and for using faith in God's Providence to get out of helping the poor.

So yes, the discussion is not going anywhere because it is your fault.

No. Jesus is not referring to physical birth in this passage. He is talking about rebirth and only rebirth. Nicodemus understood that it was about rebirth, but was confused because he thought Jesus was talking about physical rebirth which is not physically possible. Jesus, in talking only about rebirth speaks of rebirth of water and spirit.

I believe Jesus was differentiating between the two kinds of entering the kingdom of God by how they were born as in verse 6. which the former was by natural birth as being different from how one is born again of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Condescending ad hominem.

Only if you follow church teachings in how they apply His words rather than what Jesus actually meant in leaning on Him to be your Good Shepherd since we are to prove everything by Him, no matter if it be your church, your favorite teacher or leader, or me or even you in your studies. That iron sharpen iron does not negate anyone since we are not all perfect and still growing in the Lord, but our confirmation has to come from Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit in us.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The Lord helped see the errors that my Covenant United Presbyterian church had taught me. He helped me to see the errors of Liberty Home Bible Institute tried to teach me. He helps me to see the errors or assumptions I have made regarding truth in His words in seeing the Book of Enoch as a fraud. He helps me to see the evolution theory as a false science, not just by the definitions of real science and the basis for a valid scientific theory, and the laws of science, but by His words as well.

So I am open to correction by the scripture but He helps me to see that when people do not hear or see reproof, it ma be because they do not want to believe their church is wrong in that regard. New born babes will be pruned to bear more fruit and since we are not perfect yet, we should be open to more pruning by Him to bear more fruit in being His disciples so that our joy may be full. The consequence for resisting reproof is to cease abiding in Him and be at risk of being left behind for not being ready only to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Since we all should go to the Lord for help to see the truth in any discussion... and we should pray for one another that He will prove this too.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

 

[Hark]

Agreed, ". . . not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God." As St. Paul writes in his epistle to Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5, born again of water and spirit)."

That is a horrible translation. Pledge?

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.....

Galatians 3:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So it cannot be pledge of a good conscience but an answer of a good conscience which is to believe in Him per the resurrection of Jesus Christ

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Can't be pledge because of these verses;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So the answer of a good conscience toward God per the resurrection of Jesus Christ is to believe in Him to be saved.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done.. hence not water baptism.... and the washing of regeneration and renewing is of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour ............ not by or through water baptism.

I believe Jesus was differentiating between the two kinds of entering the kingdom of God by how they were born as in verse 6. which the former was by natural birth as being different from how one is born again of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus was not talking about water baptism at all here, but only He can help you see that truth in His words.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

So yes, the discussion is not going anywhere because it is your fault.

I think we're done here. Thank you for your time.

 

[Hark]

I am asking you where in Acts ch 10-11 does it say that the falling of the HG equaled salvation? You are pulling in a verse from another book addressing a different issue and in a different context. You continue to do this throughout the remainder of the points you write as well.

If you are trying to make sense of what has happened in the Book of Acts, then you have to go to what is plainly taught to the churches in the epistles.

As it is, we can apply your skepticism to the errant teaching you seem to believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation and yet it is by believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins plainly stated by Peter and as soon as they heard that word, the Holy Ghost fell on them which is the promise for all those that believe in Jesus Christ at their salvation; hence going to the traditions taught of us when that sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth was received at the calling of the gospel.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

No water baptism mentioned here for that salvation effect and yet that is the tradition taught of us.

So apply your skepticism to Acts 2 about water baptism when the Gentiles were saved without water baptism. Thus the commandment to be water baptized has nothing to do with the remission of sins but everything to do for new believers in following Him as His disciples per the Gentiles.

 

[Hark]

I think we're done here.

You could have easily go through James 2nd chapter in applying his words to your belief to undo this fault. I did it in going by verses to show how they applied to what I am saying James is really talking about. So why don't you?

Is it because you can't? Then the progress of the discussion is stalled on your account. Not mine. That is why I said it is your fault on that point

Thank you for your time.

Thank your for your time, brother. I can only hope the Lord will give you the same amount of patience and love to go through James 2 nd chapter in showing how they align with what you are saying or believing James is saying to be about regarding faith without works being dead as being about salvation when I say it is about faith in God's providence that is dead.

If someone was worrying a lot and you say .. oh ye of little faith.. and share His words to encourage the worrying believer that the Father cares for him or her.. so they need not worry, does that mean because of that lack of faith in the Father taking care of them , they are not saved, regardless of believing in Him and having been water baptized as you seem to think salvation is by?? They still believe in Him. They still have been water baptized in according to your belief that they are saved.

So because they do not have faith that God will take care of them, they are not saved or is it a matter of applying faith in the father that He does so they may bear more fruit in following Him as His disciples?

If a Christian leader preaches that God will heal and therefore no need to go to a doctor nor a hospital, but when he gets sick, he goes to a doctor or a hospital, where is that faith? In the eyes of his followers, that Christian leader's faith is dead and will not profit them nor save them when he fails to lead by example of that faith in Him to not need a doctor or a hospital.

Granted, no one should teach that since Luke was a physician, but the point is hopefully made by Him about James rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by giving a benediction voicing their faith in God's Providence that God will feed and keep them warm. In the eyes of the poor, that church's faith in God's providence is dead seeing how it cannot "profit" the poor by the church's bad example, let alone save the poor from starvation or the elements.

It is the church's faith in God's Providence that is dead that will not profit the poor nor save the poor from starvation and the elements.

It is not the church's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation without works that is dead. If you speak of your faith in God's providence then you should lead by example, otherwise why speak of it if by example, those you say it to, cannot see it, but your lack of faith in God's providence..

Maybe later on you will have His Patience and love to actually go through James 2 nd chapter from verse 1 since that was the beginning of my point that James was addressing the abuse & neglect of the poor from the very get go by that church.

For the point you make, then James was wasting his time rebuking them when he should have just said they are not His church & thus not saved, but that is not what he said since he continue to address & warn believers and churches in other matters after chapter 2 in the Book of James

I was merely laying the fault for the stalling of our discussion that you had accused me of back on you, hoping to provoke you to do as I did but in going through James chapter 2 in applying it to what you believe James was talking about.

I leave you in God's hands and care, brother. I do love you as my brother to tell you the truth.

 

[YeshuaFan]

You could have easily go through James 2nd chapter in applying his words to your belief to undo this fault. I did it in going by verses to show how they applied to what I am saying James is really talking about. So why don't you?

Is it because you can't? Then the progress of the discussion is stalled on your account. Not mine. That is why I said it is your fault on that point

Thank your for your time, brother. I can only hope the Lord will give you the same amount of patience and love to go through James 2 nd chapter in showing how they align with what you are saying or believing James is saying to be about regarding faith without works being dead as being about salvation when I say it is about faith in God's providence that is dead.

If someone was worrying a lot and you say .. oh ye of little faith.. and share His words to encourage the worrying believer that the Father cares for him or her.. so they need not worry, does that mean because of that lack of faith in the Father taking care of them , they are not saved, regardless of believing in Him and having been water baptized as you seem to think salvation is by?? They still believe in Him. They still have been water baptized in according to your belief that they are saved.

So because they do not have faith that God will take care of them, they are not saved or is it a matter of applying faith in the father that He does so they may bear more fruit in following Him as His disciples?

If a Christian leader preaches that God will heal and therefore no need to go to a doctor nor a hospital, but when he gets sick, he goes to a doctor or a hospital, where is that faith? In the eyes of his followers, that Christian leader's faith is dead and will not profit them nor save them when he fails to lead by example of that faith in Him to not need a doctor or a hospital.

Granted, no one should teach that since Luke was a physician, but the point is hopefully made by Him about James rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor by giving a benediction voicing their faith in God's Providence that God will feed and keep them warm. In the eyes of the poor, that church's faith in God's providence is dead seeing how it cannot "profit" the poor by the church's bad example, let alone save the poor from starvation or the elements.

It is the church's faith in God's Providence that is dead that will not profit the poor nor save the poor from starvation and the elements.

It is not the church's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation without works that is dead. If you speak of your faith in God's providence then you should lead by example, otherwise why speak of it if by example, those you say it to, cannot see it, but your lack of faith in God's providence..

Maybe later on you will have His Patience and love to actually go through James 2 nd chapter from verse 1 since that was the beginning of my point that James was addressing the abuse & neglect of the poor from the very get go by that church.

For the point you make, then James was wasting his time rebuking them when he should have just said they are not His church & thus not saved, but that is not what he said since he continue to address & warn believers and churches in other matters after chapter 2 in the Book of James

I was merely laying the fault for the stalling of our discussion that you had accused me of back on you, hoping to provoke you to do as I did but in going through James chapter 2 in applying it to what you believe James was talking about.

I leave you in God's hands and care, brother. I do love you as my brother to tell you the truth.

The thief upon the Cross made heaven apart from water Baptism!

 

[ziapueblo]

I believe Jesus was differentiating between the two kinds of entering the kingdom of God by how they were born as in verse 6. which the former was by natural birth as being different from how one is born again of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus was not talking about water baptism at all here, but only He can help you see that truth in His words.

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"

I remember a priest jokingly saying how God was "boring" in the sense that he uses the same things every time he starts something new, water and Spirit. He does this because it works.

• Genesis 1:1-2, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters." The Spirit is moving over the water and next comes creation.
• Noah - Jews refer to Noah as the second Adam because the story of Noah is that of a new creation. We have the flood (water) and the dove (Spirit). As mentioned in above posts, 1 Peter 3:18-21, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
• Moses - In Exodus, they flee the Egyptians by passing through the Red Sea (water) and Exodus 13:21-22, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night; the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people." Fire and the cloud, both representations of the Spirit in Scripture. Again, water and Spirit. What is new creation after the Exodus story? The nation of Israel! Something to take not of, St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 10 verses 1-4, "Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."
• Ezekiel 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." Water and Spirit. Ezekiel is prophesying the New Covenant.
• Jesus is baptized and goes down into the water and, "He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."
• In Acts 2:37-40 St. Peter is asked what should be done in order to be saved. He responds, "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?' Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.'" Water (baptism) and Spirit.
• Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration (water) and renewing of the Holy Spirit." Water and Spirit, it works!
  

 

[Hark]

The thief upon the Cross made heaven apart from water Baptism!

Where's Abraham's Bosom A.K.A. Paradise Located?

Click in the link above in blue to see the thread as to where the thief had gone after he had died. Then you can see how after His resurrection & His ascension, He brought Paradise and all that are in it with Him to God the Father in Heaven and Jesus can do that because He is God also.

 

[Hark]

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"

I thank you for sharing but in context from verse 5, Jesus did bother to differentiate from natural birth as of the Jewish bloodline to Nicodemus so he would know the difference to being born again of the Spirit.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now the point here is that if born again of the Spirit is always done by water baptism, then verse 8 is null and void for then we would know when a person is going to be born again of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

So Nicodemus is asking when, how this will take place. Jesus is answering.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The born again of the Spirit is to take place after His ascension which is after His crucifixion that by believing in Him is how we are saved.

Jesus confirms this by belief alone for He judges how sinners are condemned already for not believing in the name of the only begotten Son.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Nowhere from giving that answer to Nicodemus for how that born again of the Spirit by water baptism was ever given, but believing in Him is how one is born again of the Spirit.

Was Jesus negligent in telling Nicodemus? No.

And those who advocate that He did say that before His answer to Nicodemus, should see why it was not mentioned in His answer to Nicodemus afterwards again because water baptism was not what HE was talking about from before when He was explaining the first birth as being of the flesh when the water breaks signifying that it was time for a woman to give birth Jesus explained there is no outward sign when a person is born again for why Nicodemus had his question and Jesus gave an answer not involving water baptism but belief in Jesus Christ.

No one can tell when a sinner believes in Jesus Christ when they get born again of the Spirit., but when it happens, it is to the preaching of the gospel, not to water baptism.

 

[Hark]

I remember a priest jokingly saying how God was "boring" in the sense that he uses the same things every time he starts something new, water and Spirit. He does this because it works.

• Genesis 1:1-2, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters." The Spirit is moving over the water and next comes creation.

I submit because of John 1:1-14 that before Jesus became incarnated as the Son of Man, He is our Creator. As Jesus is our Mediator now when it comes to prayer, asking the Father for us, He had asked the Father to create man in "our image" and after "our" likeness so when the Father agreed, the Son did it with the Holy Spirit being in compliance to that act of creation.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And what the Spirit of God aka the Spirit of Christ does now in ministry is that all credit & glory to answers in prayers and in ministry goes to the Son to glorify Him because only the Son answers prayers so that the father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Now a lot of believers seem to think I am being legalistic but that is what He has said. He testified that God the father judges no man but render all judgments unto the Son so that the moment we stop honoring the Son in worship, we are not honoring the Father. So that means honoring the Holy Spirit or the "Trinity" is not what the Father wants to be honored by. It is by only honoring the Son in coming to Him in worship is how any one can come to God the father in worship to honor & glorify Him by.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

That is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So your applying the Spirit of God over the water is not to void and null the scripture testifying Jesus as the Word of God that created everything. Your reference in Genesis 1:2 does not testify to the Spirit of God creating anything, but just moving over the surface of the water. in all respect

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Thank you for sharing, but there is some correction to applying scripture as if the Spirit of God created everything when the Spirit would defer that credit & glory to the Word of God as scripture does too..

 

[Hark]

• Noah - Jews refer to Noah as the second Adam because the story of Noah is that of a new creation. We have the flood (water) and the dove (Spirit). As mentioned in above posts, 1 Peter 3:18-21, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

I wish to point out from your quote "but made alive by the Spirit" to signify baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and thus Jesus gives us eternal life for coming to & believing in Him.

That is why I believe the baptism spoken of here is one of the Spirit and not one of water baptism since those in prison that were preached to were not immersed in water baptism to be saved, but believed Jesus Christ when He went to that prison to preach to them.

So 1 Peter 3:18-21 is by believing in Him is the answer of a good conscience to God because that is all those in that prison can do by believing His preaching to them.

 

[Hark]

• Moses - In Exodus, they flee the Egyptians by passing through the Red Sea (water) and Exodus 13:21-22, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night; the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people." Fire and the cloud, both representations of the Spirit in Scripture. Again, water and Spirit. What is new creation after the Exodus story? The nation of Israel! Something to take not of, St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 10 verses 1-4, "Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

Not sure how you can apply that reference in the same context of Christians now in regards to what that baptism was about when it has nothing to do with salvation, but what God has done for them that we do not emulate after them by living in sin.

1 Corinthians 10:1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

What has God done for us is that He has saved us by our believing in Him and that belief in Him is a work of God also.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see no water baptism state per the Father's will in how we are saved in verse 40.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

That means the Father can hide the truth from the prudent and the wise and is able to reveal the truth even unto babes so when they believe in Him, they are saved. Salvation as in the simplicity of the gospel is that simple. You can preach the gospel to babes now. You can apply faith for pregnant mothers to preach the gospel to the unborn babe in the womb too.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It is that last verse 21 above is why I believe our believing in Him is a work of God also so we can thank the Father in Jesus's name for our believing in His Son as our Saviour. It may seem foolish to the religious that God just saved those that believe in Him but that is the power of God in salvation and not of us by water baptism. This pleases God to save those that believe in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God............ 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

The thief upon the Cross made heaven apart from water Baptism!

The thief on the cross was declared saved under the Old Testament and is not a valid example for how to be saved under the NT.

 

[Hark]

• Ezekiel 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." Water and Spirit. Ezekiel is prophesying the New Covenant.

When God says He will do it, then He will do it. What water on earth can be seen as clean water? Per your reference, one can discern that clean water & new spirit is metaphor about the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

By grace He did this. not by our work of doing water baptism.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So water baptism has nothing to do with obtaining our salvation for then it would not be by grace.

Water baptism has everything to do with walking in Him as His disciples. One could say that is the first step in running that race which is still by the grace of Bod but this time by applying faith in Jesus Christ in being Our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I wish to point out from your quote "but made alive by the Spirit" to signify baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and thus Jesus gives us eternal life for coming to & believing in Him.

That is why I believe the baptism spoken of here is one of the Spirit and not one of water baptism since those in prison that were preached to were not immersed in water baptism to be saved, but believed Jesus Christ when He went to that prison to preach to them.

So 1 Peter 3:18-21 is by believing in Him is the answer of a good conscience to God because that is all those in that prison can do by believing His preaching to them.

Why would paul thank God that he Baptized but a few, while he preached the Gospel IF water Baptism required?

 

[Hark]

• Jesus is baptized and goes down into the water and, "He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."

Matthew 3:5 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This event was to fulfill all righteousness of the scripture of how the Lord God and His Spirit sent God Our Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So that water baptism did not save Jesus nor did He receives the remission of sins by John the Baptist's for that was what his baptism was for,.

Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John the Baptist prepared the way of the Lord in that as John the Baptist baptized the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, it paved the way where now sinners that believe in Him shall receive the remission of sins & the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment.

Acts 10: 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

So what Jesus meant to fulfill all righteousness was to signify the fulfillment of prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 where God the Father bore witness of Jesus being His Son; hence God as the Holy Spirit pre confirmed that testimony from the Father in Heaven by alighting on the Son like a dove.

 

[Hark]

Why would paul thank God that he Baptized but a few, while he preached the Gospel IF water Baptism required?

True. Why would Paul say he was not sent to baptize if that is always required with the preaching of the cross to save those that believe?

 

[Hark]

• In Acts 2:37-40 St. Peter is asked what should be done in order to be saved. He responds, "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?' Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.'" Water (baptism) and Spirit.

Go back one more verse to see how they were convicted of; crucifying Jesus per unbelief due to the charge of blasphemy that He is God.

Acta 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Repent in regards to what they were pricked in the heart for doing, crucifying Jesus for not believing He is God. so repent is to believe in Him for the remission of sins where y they shall receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment; hence born again of the Spirit.

It has to be the same gospel for the Gentiles as Peter said this was in according to the prophets also as they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

• Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration (water) and renewing of the Holy Spirit." Water and Spirit, it works!

I understand that you see the washing of regeneration by water baptism, but I see that as being done through the Holy Spirit since the renewing is also done through the Holy Spirit. See? Just belief in Jesus Christ for the promise of the Spirit at our salvation and no water baptism needed.

However, newly saved believers are commanded to be water baptized as the first step in following Him as His disciples in living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Go back one more verse to see how they were convicted of; crucifying Jesus per unbelief due to the charge of blasphemy that He is God.

Acta 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Repent in regards to what they were pricked in the heart for doing, crucifying Jesus for not believing He is God. so repent is to believe in Him for the remission of sins where y they shall receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment; hence born again of the Spirit.

It has to be the same gospel for the Gentiles as Peter said this was in according to the prophets also as they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I understand that you see the washing of regeneration by water baptism, but I see that as being done through the Holy Spirit since the renewing is also done through the Holy Spirit. See? Just belief in Jesus Christ for the promise of the Spirit at our salvation and no water baptism needed.

However, newly saved believers are commanded to be water baptized as the first step in following Him as His disciples in living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

Does the Holy Spirit come to indwell and seal us when dunked in water, or when Faith in Jesus as Lord?

 

[Hark]

Does the Holy Spirit come to indwell and seal us when dunked in water, or when Faith in Jesus as Lord?

By faith in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.