Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation

valtteri21

Member
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I think that not only Calvinism says Judas was not Saved, but all of Evangelicalism believes Judas wasn't Saved; what do you think?
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Judas was NEVER "Saved" - NOBODY WAS until AFTER Calvary, when it became possible to be CLEANSED from SIN.
 

Gomer

Active member
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
It would be like I gave you 12 different colored pencils to keep. Later I come back to you for the pencils and you tell me you have kept all the pencils but the red colored one was lost. You could not say that about the red pencil unless I did give it to you and you possessed it. It could not become lost if it were never possessed by you. If there is no reason to believe that Judas was saved when he was given to and kept by Christ, then there is no reason to think the other disciples were saved either when they too were given to Christ and kept.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It would be like I gave you 12 different colored pencils to keep. Later I come back to you for the pencils and you tell me you have kept all the pencils but the red colored one was lost. You could not say that about the red pencil unless I did give it to you and you possessed it. It could not become lost if it were never possessed by you. If there is no reason to believe that Judas was saved when he was given to and kept by Christ, then there is no reason to think the other disciples were saved either when they too were given to Christ and kept.
That is the best argument for your side I have ever heard...
 
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Howie

Well-known member
It would be like I gave you 12 different colored pencils to keep. Later I come back to you for the pencils and you tell me you have kept all the pencils but the red colored one was lost. You could not say that about the red pencil unless I did give it to you and you possessed it. It could not become lost if it were never possessed by you. If there is no reason to believe that Judas was saved when he was given to and kept by Christ, then there is no reason to think the other disciples were saved either when they too were given to Christ and kept.
Errrrrr, uhhhhhhhhhhh, Judas was not kept by Jesus. Far from it. 😏
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Jesus addressing his disciples said their names were written in the book of life. He did not say "except one." He also said there were 12 thrones waiting and that his blood was shed for all those he gave it to at the Last Supper.

This shows Judas was saved at some point and also was intended to be saved.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jesus addressing his disciples said their names were written in the book of life. He did not say "except one." He also said there were 12 thrones waiting and that his blood was shed for all those he gave it to at the Last Supper.

This shows Judas was saved at some point and also was intended to be saved.
Can you show us why you believe this?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It would be like I gave you 12 different colored pencils to keep. Later I come back to you for the pencils and you tell me you have kept all the pencils but the red colored one was lost. You could not say that about the red pencil unless I did give it to you and you possessed it. It could not become lost if it were never possessed by you. If there is no reason to believe that Judas was saved when he was given to and kept by Christ, then there is no reason to think the other disciples were saved either when they too were given to Christ and kept.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(Now I want to go watch "Son of Perdition" again...)
 

Gomer

Active member
Jesus addressing his disciples said their names were written in the book of life. He did not say "except one." He also said there were 12 thrones waiting and that his blood was shed for all those he gave it to at the Last Supper.

This shows Judas was saved at some point and also was intended to be saved.
Matt 10 where Jesus gives the limited commission to His Apostles is further proof Judas at one time was in a saved state. Everything Jesus says in this chapter applies to Judas as much as it applies to the other Apostles including Judas given miraculous abilities, he was a sheep not a wolf, inspired by the HS in what he would speak, he was sent to preach with authority from Christ, God is said to be His Father, receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ which is the same as receiving God.
 

MMDAN

Active member
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Also

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Matt 10 where Jesus gives the limited commission to His Apostles is further proof Judas at one time was in a saved state. Everything Jesus says in this chapter applies to Judas as much as it applies to the other Apostles including Judas given miraculous abilities, he was a sheep not a wolf, inspired by the HS in what he would speak, he was sent to preach with authority from Christ, God is said to be His Father, receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ which is the same as receiving God.
Let me ask you this; would the title 'Son of Perdition' likewise apply to all the Disciples as well? No, it wouldn't. I would need a better argument or a more clear Verse of Scripture that says Judas was Saved...
 
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squirrelyguy

Active member
It seems to me that a bit of reflection on the word "lost" would bear this out. What does it imply when something is lost, if not that it once belonged to someone? If God and Jesus had never "owned" Judas, then it would be confusing to speak of him as "lost."

This is true in the parable of the prodigal son, is it not? The prodigal son was a full member of his father's household with all of the rights that came with it (he wouldn't have had a right to claim an inheritance if he wasn't). Yet he became "lost" before he was "found" again.
 

Gomer

Active member
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(Now I want to go watch "Son of Perdition" again...)
The language of Jn 17:12 shows all the Apostles were subject to become apostates (Jn 66:66-67) yet it would be Judas to meet this destiny of apostate/son of perdition due to his corrupt character. Acts 1:25 Peter said Judas fell or turned aside. Logically one cannot fall from or turn a side from what they never had...one who was always in transgression, already fallen cannot fall.
 

Gomer

Active member
It seems to me that a bit of reflection on the word "lost" would bear this out. What does it imply when something is lost, if not that it once belonged to someone? If God and Jesus had never "owned" Judas, then it would be confusing to speak of him as "lost."

This is true in the parable of the prodigal son, is it not? The prodigal son was a full member of his father's household with all of the rights that came with it (he wouldn't have had a right to claim an inheritance if he wasn't). Yet he became "lost" before he was "found" again.
He was to meet the destiny of being a son of perdition due to the corrupt character he possessed. He was not born lost, he was not always lost, not always a son of perdition but that is what he became.
 

Gomer

Active member
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Also

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
The context DOES says Judas was given and kept, the context does NOT say Judas was always lost.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The context DOES says Judas was given and kept, the context does NOT say Judas was always lost.
Gomer, this is why we need Systematic Theology. Other Verses teach that we have crossed from death to life and will not be condemned. If we do not have a Systematic Theology, then all we have are 'Dueling Verses'; and we don't want that...

Let's say my Pretext (John 5:24) is placed on a pedestal, and I take the personal interpretation that your Pretext must concede to it; this would be a wrong tactic, right? So the same goes for your pretext; it would be wrong to make John 5:24 concede to it. Your Pretext and my Pretext need to become a Couple and start holding hands. Someone will approach the Couple and say 'Jesus Kept Judas', and the Couple would respond with 'Well, Yes and No'...

Judas was Kept in a different way...
 
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