Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation

ReverendRV said:
Gomer, this is why we need Systematic Theology. Other Verses teach that we have crossed from death to life and will not be condemned. If we do not have a Systematic Theology, then all we have are 'Dueling Verses'; and we don't want that...

Let's say my Pretext (John 5:24) is placed on a pedestal, and I take the personal interpretation that your Pretext must concede to it; this would be a wrong tactic, right? So the same goes for your pretext; it would be wrong to make John 5:24 concede to it. Your Pretext and my Pretext need to become a Couple and start holding hands. Someone will approach the Couple and say 'Jesus Kept Judas', and the Couple would respond with 'Well, Yes and No'...

Judas was Kept in a different way...
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There are not any 'dueling verses" for no verse says Judas was never saved. Men add the idea Judas was never saved to protect their biased theology.

There is every reason to think if Judas was not saved when he was given to Christ and kept, then there is no reason to think the other 11 were saved.

Matt 10 is proof beyond any reasonable doubt Judas was in a saved state just as the other 11. Makes no sense in Jesus choosing 11 saved and one unsaved for the office of an Apostle. One point from Mt 10 I did not makes was Judas was given the power to cast out devils. Jesus argument against the Pharisees is a house divided against itself cannot stand. If Satan cast out Satan then he is divided against himself. If Judas was always a devil, then we have a devil casting out a devil and Jesus' own argument against the Pharisees is violated and mute.

Judas was not always a pretender/faker for Jesus, (in order to discourage frauds and fakes) told the Apostles, including Judas, they would have to make tremendous sacrifices, give up all to follow Him (Lk 9:57ff) and endure persecution (Mt 10:16ff) and there's no material, monetary gain and Judas agreed to all of this to become an Apostle which makes no sense if he was just a fraud, faker.

Mt 10:25 Jesus says the disciple will be treated no better than the Master, in other words, Jesus is Head of the household and all 12 were members of Jesus household and they would be treated just as the Head of the house. Jesus said if they call Him, Who is the Head of the household, Beelzebub, then family members of that household should expect to be called the same. Judas could not be lost while a family member of Christ's own household.

Twice in Mt 10 God is called the Father of Judas....."your Father".

And receiving an Apostle would be the same as receiving Jesus and God. If Judas were always a devil, it cannot be true that receiving a devil is the same as receiving Christ even God the Father.
 
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Gomer said:
There are not any 'dueling verses" for no verse says Judas was never saved. Men add the idea Judas was never saved to protect their biased theology.

There is every reason to think if Judas was not saved when he was given to Christ and kept, then there is no reason to think the other 11 were saved.

Matt 10 is proof beyond any reasonable doubt Judas was in a saved state just as the other 11. Makes no sense in Jesus choosing 11 saved and one unsaved for the office of an Apostle. One point from Mt 10 I did not makes was Judas was given the power to cast out devils. Jesus argument against the Pharisees is a house divided against itself cannot stand. If Satan cast out Satan then he is divided against himself. If Judas was always a devil, then we have a devil casting out a devil and Jesus' own argument against the Pharisees is violated and mute.

Judas was not always a pretender/faker for Jesus, (in order to discourage frauds and fakes) told the Apostles, including Judas, they would have to make tremendous sacrifices, give up all to follow Him (Lk 9:57ff) and endure persecution (Mt 10:16ff) and there's no material, monetary gain and Judas agreed to all of this to become an Apostle which makes no sense if he was just a fraud, faker.

Mt 10:25 Jesus says the disciple will be treated no better than the Master, in other words, Jesus is Head of the household and all 12 were members of Jesus iiiiiasedousehold and they would be treated just as the Head of the house. Jesus said if they call Him, Who is the Head of the household, Beelzebub, then family members of that household should expect to be called the same. Judas could not be lost while a family member of Christ's own household.

Twice in Mt 10 God is called the Father of Judas....."your Father".

And receiving an Apostle would be the same as receiving Jesus and God. If Judas were always a devil, it cannot be true that receiving a devil is the same as receiving Christ even God the Father.
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I would say that Verses need to be protected. Look at it this way; your Verse needs to be protected from Calvinists; Jesus Kept Judas..

So it is also true that my Verse needs to be protected from you; Jesus said they crossed from death to life and shall not be Condemned. You are not protecting my Verse with me, although I am protecting your Verse by agreeing Jesus Kept Judas; that's not fair...

But I must continue to protect your Verse. I'll protect it from people, but I'm not protecting it from All Scripture. Since no Born Again Christian shall be Condemned, Judas was Kept another way...
 
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ReverendRV said:
I would say that Verses need to be protected. Look at it this way; your Verse needs to be protected from Calvinists; Jesus Kept Judas..

So it is also true that my Verse needs to be protected from you; Jesus said they crossed from death to life and shall not be Condemned. You are not protecting my Verse with me, although I am protecting your Verse by agreeing Jesus Kept Judas; that's not fair...

But I must continue to protect your Verse. I'll protect it from people, but I'm not protecting it from All Scripture. Since no Born Again Christian shall be Condemned, Judas was Kept another way...
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No verse says disciples/Christians are kept UNCONDITIONALLY.

1 Pet 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Christians are CONDITIONALLY kept "through faith". Christian who lose/cast away their faith no longer will be kept. Jude commanded to Christians to "keep yourselves in the love of God" logically implying the Christian can fall from God's saving loving favor.


The implication in John 17 was that any of those disciples could become apostates and Judas due to his corrupt character did become an apostate. John 6:66-67 'From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?' The word 'also' carries the idea of likewise or in like manner that being all those Apostles could likewise turn from Christ and follow Him no more as those disciples in v66 did and as Judas did.

Again, no verse says nor even implies Judas was always lost, never saved.
 
Gomer said:
No verse says disciples/Christians are kept UNCONDITIONALLY.

1 Pet 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Christians are CONDITIONALLY kept "through faith" Christians loses faith no longer will be kept. Judas commanded to Christians to "keep yourselves in the love of God" logically implying the Christian can fall from God's saving loving favor.


The implication in John 17 was that any of those disciples could become apostates and Judas due to his corrupt character. did become an apostate. John 6:66-67 'From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?' The word 'also' carries the idea of likewise or in like manner that being all those Apostles could likewise turn from Christ and follow Him no more as those in v66 did and as Judas did.

Again, no verse says nor even implies Judas was always lost, never saved.
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Gomer, Disciples are Students. I argue this with the Church of Christ folk who want to Conflate Disciples with Saints. If you are right, we are to make Saints by Baptizing them...

It's wrong to Conflate Judas the Disciple with Judas the Saint...
 
Gomer said:
No verse says disciples/Christians are kept UNCONDITIONALLY.
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This is really the single important point with OSAS logic.

Any promise of security, they are forcing into the text the meaning "And this promise has no conditions whatsoever attached to it."

Consider carefully:

"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30.

Now according to literally ALL OSAS LOGIC, this first promise would have to 100% mean Eternal Security or you are not "protecting the verse" or whatever they want to call it.
 
ReverendRV said:
Gomer, Disciples are Students. I argue this with the Church of Christ folk who want to Conflate Disciples with Saints. If you are right, we are to make Saints by Baptizing them...

It's wrong to Conflate Judas the Disciple with Judas the Saint...
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The issue I raised with Jn 6:66-67 was that the APOSTLES could turn from Christ and follow Him no more. If it were impossible for the Apostles to turn from Christ and walk with Him no more then the statement Jesus made in v67 is implying a falsehood.
 
Gomer said:
The issue I raised with Jn 6:66-67 was that the APOSTLES could turn from Christ and follow Him no more. If it were impossible for the Apostles to turn from Christ and walk with Him no more then the statement Jesus made in v67 is implying a falsehood.
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Either way, there is an implied falsehood. Jesus said they had crossed over from death to life and shall not be Condemned like Judas was...

This is what I'm talking about. I don't want to be one-sided; that causes there to be implied falsehoods, this cannot be allowed. The Lurkers are watching. I've talked to a few of them on the Secular Atheism Board. They can't Post here but can read here. They are seeing you say, and hearing me agree with you, that there are implied falsehoods in the Bible if you are correct. You are telling them exactly what they want to hear; you are tickling their ears. Do me a favor, and say there are no implied falsehoods in the Bible. Tell them that I am right, that All Scripture is Good for Doctrines which we may not like...

The Bitter-Sweet word of God...
 
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Howie said:
Dorsn't help you.
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Judas was both given and kept as the other 11 and would therefore be in a saved state as the other 11 but became lost as Squirrelyguy points out the logic of becoming lost in post #15.

If eternal security were true it would render the words 'apostate' and 'fall' meaningless:

apostasia
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

biblehub.com

It literally means to leave a previous standing meaning one leaves a saved standing to a lost standing. A person who is lost/never saved his standing has not changed, he has not left a previous standing for they were lost before and are still lost now.

The word 'fall' carries the same idea, a change of location, Thayer says of 'fall' it is "of descent from a higher place to a lower".

Strong's Greek: 4098. πίπτω, (piptó) -- to fall

biblehub.com

Logically for me to fall from a from a tree, a high place, to the ground, a lower place, I must first be in the tree. I cannot fall from the tree if I am never in the tree. Therefore a person in a saved state can fall from that higher place to a lower place of being lost. One who has been and continues to be fallen cannot fall for he ALREADY is fallen.
To fall from grace implies one must first be in grace in order to fall from it.

Lastly Matt 10, which I have cited from many times, proves Judas was in a saved relationship with Christ beyond any doubt.
 
ReverendRV said:
Either way, there is an implied falsehood. Jesus said they had crossed over from death to life and shall not be Condemned like Judas was...

This is what I'm talking about. I don't want to be one-sided; that causes there to be implied falsehoods, this cannot be allowed. The Lurkers are watching. I've talked to a few of them on the Secular Atheism Board. They can't Post here but can read here. They are seeing you say, and hearing me agree with you, that there are implied falsehoods in the Bible if you are correct. You are telling them exactly what they want to hear; you are tickling their ears. Do me a favor, and say there are no implied falsehoods in the Bible. Tell them that I am right, that All Scripture is Good for Doctrines which we may not like...

The Bitter-Sweet word of God...
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There is no falsehood implied either way. Jesus NEVER promised the Apostles or any disciple unconditional guaranteed salvation, thus the truth in implying the Apostles could ALSO turn and follow Him no more as did Judas.

If you have contact with these lurkers, ask them to relay to you where Jesus promises unconditional, guaranteed salvation no matter how the Christian lives and then relay what they say to me. Better yet, you provide such a verse.



Now, as far as these lurkers, if they read this post of mine, I want them to know I believe the Bible when it teaches there is one church/body and one faith, (Eph 4:4-6) it does not teach the idea of man made denominationalism where all the contradictions come from. The Bible uses the institution of marriage (ONE bride married to ONE husband) to show Christ's relationship to His ONE church, that the church is His ONE bride and the church has ONE husband Christ, 1 Cor 11;2. Christ is not a spiritual polygamist, not a spiritual adulterer with 1000's of brides, He has just one. When Jesus returns He is coming back for that one bride and that's all He's coming for.

Therefore the Bible does not teach the idea of many faiths or many bodies, just one faith, one body and that is what I would teach to those lurkers and that all the contradictions are not from the Bible but from man made denominationalism. The world has won the debate against denominationalism when the world calls out denomiatuonlism over the fact denominationalists want to condemn the world but yet the world points out these denominations cannot even agree with each other over what the Bible teaches....cased closed....world wins. In this case, I am taking the world's side against denominationalism for the world has a valid, logical point and denominationlism does not. I have said it before and will say it again, if i did not believe what I believe, I most likely would be non-religious type person or maybe an agnostic if not an all out atheist myself. I would NEVER get myself mixed up with all the illogical unproveable contradictions denominationalism has created putting myself in an impossible position trying to explain away the contradictions. I believe what I believe and I am going in one straight line, no deviations, no compromises.

I know all these various groups claim to be that one body possessing that one faith but that is not mathematically, logically, theologically possible. There is just one true bride and a lot of wannabes. It's the one bride Christ knows and the wannabes that will hear "I never knew you". Each one must decide what he/she will believe and face God on judgment day where God will separate the ones who correctly understood the Bible and possessed that one faith from those who thought they did but were wrong no matter how sincere and zealous they were.

Hello lurkers if you are reading this.
 
Gomer said:
There is no falsehood implied either way. Jesus NEVER promised the Apostles or any disciple unconditional guaranteed salvation, thus the truth in implying the Apostles could ALSO tun and follow Him no more as did Judas.

Hello lurkers if you are reading this.
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Well buddy I tried...

Jesus said they had Eternal Life and will not be Condemned; having crossed over from death to life. You and I can discuss things again later...
 
Gomer said:
.... I want them to know I believe the Bible when it teaches there is one church/body and one faith, (Eph 4:4-6) it does not teach the idea of man made denominationalism where all the contradictions come from. The Bible uses the institution of marriage (ONE bride married to ONE husband) to show Christ's relationship to His ONE church, that the church is His ONE bride and the church has ONE husband Christ, 1 Cor 11;2. Christ is not a spiritual polygamist, not a spiritual adulterer with 1000's of brides, He has just one. When Jesus returns He is coming back for that one bride and that's all He's coming for.

Therefore the Bible does not teach the idea of many faiths or many bodies, just one faith, one body and that is what I would teach to those lurkers and that all the contradictions are not from the Bible but from man made denominationalism. The world has won the debate against denominationalism when the world calls out denomiatuonlism over the fact denominationalists want to condemn the world but yet the world points out these denominations cannot even agree with each other over what the Bible teaches....cased closed....world wins. In this case, I am taking the world's side against denominationalism for the world has a valid, logical point and denominationlism does not. I have said it before and will say it again, if i did not believe what I believe, I most likely would be non-religious type person or maybe an agnostic if not an all out atheist myself. I would NEVER get myself mixed up with all the illogical unproveable contradictions denominationalism has created putting myself in an impossible position trying to explain away the contradictions. I believe what I believe and I am going in one straight line, no deviations, no compromises.

I know all these various groups claim to be that one body possessing that one faith but that is not mathematically, logically, theologically possible. There is just one true bride and a lot of wannabes. It's the one bride Christ knows and the wannabes that will hear "I never knew you". Each one must decide what he/she will believe and face God on judgment day where God will separate the ones who correctly understood the Bible and possessed that one faith from those who thought they did but were wrong no matter how sincere and zealous they were.
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One body - the Church, that knows /in Part /.... and sees /in Part /.


the More we grow In -- Christ, the more we come to -- Know ....


the Less we grow, and /or have grown.... the Less we can see .
 
Gomer said:
Judas was both given and kept as the other 11 and would therefore be in a saved state as the other 11 but became lost as Squirrelyguy points out the logic of becoming lost in post #15.

If eternal security were true it would render the words 'apostate' and 'fall' meaningless:

apostasia
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

biblehub.com

It literally means to leave a previous standing meaning one leaves a saved standing to a lost standing. A person who is lost/never saved his standing has not changed, he has not left a previous standing for they were lost before and are still lost now.

The word 'fall' carries the same idea, a change of location, Thayer says of 'fall' it is "of descent from a higher place to a lower".

Strong's Greek: 4098. πίπτω, (piptó) -- to fall

biblehub.com

Logically for me to fall from a from a tree, a high place, to the ground, a lower place, I must first be in the tree. I cannot fall from the tree if I am never in the tree. Therefore a person in a saved state can fall from that higher place to a lower place of being lost. One who has been and continues to be fallen cannot fall for he ALREADY is fallen.
To fall from grace implies one must first be in grace in order to fall from it.

Lastly Matt 10, which I have cited from many times, proves Judas was in a saved relationship with Christ beyond any doubt.
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If Jesus gave Judas eternal life, then Judas saved. It's as simple as that (Jn 10:27-28).

I don't believe Judas was saved.
 
HealTheLand said:
One body - the Church, that knows /in Part /.... and sees /in Part /.


the More we grow In -- Christ, the more we come to -- Know ....


the Less we grow, and /or have grown.... the Less we can see .
Click to expand...

@Gomer


this might mean that atheists are Not trying to know -- by The Way


(Christ - Yeshua), but by -- The Mind (their Own powers), without


the powers / wisdoms -- of God .... that would come -- with Faith .
 
Gomer said:
There is no falsehood implied either way. Jesus NEVER promised the Apostles or any disciple unconditional guaranteed salvation, thus the truth in implying the Apostles could ALSO turn and follow Him no more as did Judas
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He [Jesus] will save His people ... (Mt 1:21; cf Jn 10:27-38).
 
Dizerner said:
This is really the single important point with OSAS logic.

Any promise of security, they are forcing into the text the meaning "And this promise has no conditions whatsoever attached to it."

Consider carefully:

"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30.

Now according to literally ALL OSAS LOGIC, this first promise would have to 100% mean Eternal Security or you are not "protecting the verse" or whatever they want to call it.
Click to expand...

So by YOUR "logic", we need to throw the entire NT (perhaps the entire Bible) away, since you are claiming God's words and promises are (allegedly) unreliable.

I don't think it works that way.
 
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