Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation

G

guest1

Guest
You forgot "Good works".

Read Rom 2:7 to see Paul's connection between good work and everlasting life:

Rom 2:7 "indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life."

Works of the Law do not produce everlasting life. Calvinism has a problem here.

Where do you see "works of the law" in Rom 2:7? I don't.

Rom 2:7 "indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life."

I see no "Good Works" anywhere in the above passages. These are either "works of the law" or works only passages. Everthing is perfectly aligned with Arminianism.
Yes it aligns perfectly with the truth :)
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Hair splitting. SO you teach that Salvation is BY WORKS, and not by FAITH, and Eph 2:8,9 is a lie.

Ever sit on your butt not doing anything.

Probabaly not .......

Salvation is NEVER going to be by not doing.

Theological discussions as an aside.

Does it justify us before God .... why would anyone think it would.

But not doing anything for sure will NOT.
 

Gomer

Active member
It's called election, aka: God's choice.


Ex 33:19; Rom 9:15-16. God owes salvati9n to no one; thetefore, He owes no one a hearing of the Gospel.


No one who has been saved will EVER PERISH (Jn 10:27-28).


His sheep only are given etrrnal life (Jn 10:27-28).
---People choose for themselves to hear and follow Christ or not, it's not a choice God makes for people.

---People are lost due to their sinning not because they didn't hear the gospel. There are those who did hear the gospel but remain lost for they chose not to believe the gospel.

---those that CONTINUE to hear and follow will be saved, those they quit will become lost for nowhere ever does the BIble make salvation an unconditional guarantee regardless of how the Christian lives.

---you posted "His sheep only are given eternal life" that makes having eternal life CONDITIONAL upon one becoming a sheep and faithfully remaining a sheep. Therefore having or not having eternal life is a choice each person makes for himself/herself.

---John 3:16 says whosoever believeth should not perish.

The verb 'believeth' is present tense showing an action that is ongoing, sustained and the verb 'should' is subjunctive mood which means some event may or may not happen depending upon circumstances. That means perishing or not perishing depends upon the circumstance if one continues to believe or not....
continue to believe = should not perish.
Quit believing = should perish.

'should' and 'have' are subjunctive mood for "believe" is active voice and 'perish' is middle voice which means the subject, each person, chooses for himself/herself to either believe thereby be saved or chooses to perish by choosing to not believe. Therefore believing and perishing are free will choices and one can change what he chooses therefore the subjunctive mood for perishing or not depends upon if one chooses to continue to believe or not.
 

Gomer

Active member
I'm all for encouraging obedience to God. However that is not how one is saved. One is saved by Christ's obedience and righteousness.
one is either obeying God or not, no other options.
Disobedience/unrighteousness/sinning is why men are lost therefore it must be obedience/doing righteousness that saves, "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16, God accepts those that "worketh righteousness" Acts 10:35.
Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him' Heb 5:9.

Christ's obedience to God in going to the cross provides a pathway of salvation for man, but it is still upon to man to obey Christ and take the pathway Christ's obedience provided.
 

Gomer

Active member
Hair splitting. SO you teach that Salvation is BY WORKS, and not by FAITH, and Eph 2:8,9 is a lie.
There is a night and day, left and right, up and down differences between obedience to God's will and works of merit. Those who have allowed themselves to be blinded by Luther's faith only refuse to see this obvious difference for obvious reasons. Recognizing the difference would logically force them to have to abandon Luther's faith only.

Eph 2:8-9 eliminates works of merit but certainly does not eliminate obedience to God. Who in the Bible was ever saved by living in disobedience, rebellion to God? No one.

Was Naaman's obedience in dipping to receive God's free gracious gift of healing works based whereby God owed it to him? No
Was Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive God's gracious gift of salvation from the flood works based whereby God owed it to him? No
Was the Jews in Acts 2 obedience in repenting and be baptized to receive God's gracious gift of remission of sins works based whereby God owed it to them? No

As long as one does not see or refuses to see the difference between obedience and works of merit, one will never have an accurate understanding of Biblical salvation.


If obedience and works of merit are the same thing, then the following verses read:
Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that have works of merit Heb 5:9
works of merit unto righteousness Rom 6:16
works of merit from the heart, then freed from sin Rom 6:17-18
in flaming fire taking vengeance upon them that have no works of merit, 2 Thess 1:8

It's painfully obvious obedience to God and works of merit are not the same thing. See Luke 17:7-10 to really see what obedience is about and how far from and different obedience of the servant is from works of merit.
 
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Howie

Well-known member
---People choose for themselves to hear and follow Christ or not, it's not a choice God makes for people.

---People are lost due to their sinning not because they didn't hear the gospel. There are those who did hear the gospel but remain lost for they chose not to believe the gospel.

---those that CONTINUE to hear and follow will be saved, those they quit will become lost for nowhere ever does the BIble make salvation an unconditional guarantee regardless of how the Christian lives.

---you posted "His sheep only are given eternal life" that makes having eternal life CONDITIONAL upon one becoming a sheep and faithfully remaining a sheep. Therefore having or not having eternal life is a choice each person makes for himself/herself.

---John 3:16 says whosoever believeth should not perish.

The verb 'believeth' is present tense showing an action that is ongoing, sustained and the verb 'should' is subjunctive mood which means some event may or may not happen depending upon circumstances. That means perishing or not perishing depends upon the circumstance if one continues to believe or not....
continue to believe = should not perish.
Quit believing = should perish.

'should' and 'have' are subjunctive mood for "believe" is active voice and 'perish' is middle voice which means the subject, each person, chooses for himself/herself to either believe thereby be saved or chooses to perish by choosing to not believe. Therefore believing and perishing are free will choices and one can change what he chooses therefore the subjunctive mood for perishing or not depends upon if one chooses to continue to believe or not.
I understand your position.
 

Howie

Well-known member
one is either obeying God or not, no other options.
Disobedience/unrighteousness/sinning is why men are lost therefore it must be obedience/doing righteousness that saves, "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16, God accepts those that "worketh righteousness" Acts 10:35.
Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him' Heb 5:9.

Christ's obedience to God in going to the cross provides a pathway of salvation for man, but it is still upon to man to obey Christ and take the pathway Christ's obedience provided.
I understand your position, and I disagree with you that my works are my savior. They are not.
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
Ever sit on your butt not doing anything.

Probabaly not .......

Salvation is NEVER going to be by not doing.

Theological discussions as an aside.

Does it justify us before God .... why would anyone think it would.

But not doing anything for sure will NOT.

So much for the Scriptures.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Pay attention to verse 8.

King David should have been killed. He found mercy. Not that he didn't suffer. He did, but had no where to boast of anything he ever did.

One "Oh Boy"..... destroys all the "attaboy's" you get in this life.
 

Gomer

Active member
The CONTEXT surrounding Rom 4:5 has to do with works of the OT law. The OT law required perfect, flawless obedience to be justified by it and Abraham was not sinlessly perfect in his obedience, he did not even live under the OT law, therefore Abraham was one who was not justified by working to keep the law perfectly, hence Abraham "worketh not" in being justified by flawless law keeping. Yet Abraham did obey God, Heb 11:8-17 therefore 'worketh not' cannot logically exclude the obedient works Abraham did.

Paul therefore is not eliminating obedience to justification but eliminating perfect, flawless works as required by the OT to justification. From Rom 3 the Jews were given the OT law and it was as advantage to them over the Gentiles, yet that OT law could not justify the Jew for it required perfect flawless works to be justified by it therefore leaving the Jew under sin as the Gentile v9. Paul in Rom 3 is contrasting the flawless works the OT required to be justified to an obedient faith that does justify as Abraham had and is making this same contrast in Rom 4:5..."worketh not" contrasted to a faithful "believeth"

So who will the Lord not impute sin? to the obedient man who repents of his sins as David was repentant of his sins and God forgave him, justified him and that justification came apart from the OT law and its work requirement of perfect flawless law keeping....obedience contrasted from the work of perfect flawless law keeping.
 

Gomer

Active member
That’s works salvation. Not biblical
If you means works of merit by "works salvation" then you are wrong for obedience is not a work of merit. Was Noah's building the ark a work of merit whereby God OWED him salvation from the flood? No. building the ark was Noah obeying God, Noah was simply doing what he was supposed to do in order to receive God's free gift of salvation from the flood. Building the ark earned nothing. Doing what you are supposed to be doing (obeying God's will) earns you nothing.

Lk 17:10 even after the servant has done all commanded him he is still an unprofitable servant. Noah obeyed all commanded him (Gen 6:22) but was still an unprofitable servant. Even after obeying in building the ark, even doing all commanded him he was still unprofitable, God still owed him nothing whereby the saving of his house was by grace but God required Noah build the ark to receive His grace and God will show mercy to those who obey, Jer 18:8.

It remains a Biblical fact that obedience to God and works of merit are not the same thing.
 

Gomer

Active member
Good!!! That gives me your frame of reference. You teach that a person has to EARN their salvation. Thanks for the clarification.
The faith onlyists here cannot even produce a honest argument anymore without putting words in my mouth I never said.

What I DID SAY is obedience is necessary to be saved as the Bible teaches (Rom 6:16-18; Heb 5:9: etc) and nowhere does the Bible teach obedience is a work of merit. Show one place in the Bible where one who obeyed God is their obedience called a work of merit. Where does the Bible teach obedience earns God's free gift of salvation???????
 
G

guest1

Guest
The faith onlyists here cannot even produce a honest argument anymore without putting words in my mouth I never said.

What I DID SAY is obedience is necessary to be saved as the Bible teaches (Rom 6:16-18; Heb 5:9: etc) and nowhere does the Bible teach obedience is a work of merit. Show one place in the Bible where one who obeyed God is their obedience called a work of merit. Where does the Bible teach obedience earns God's free gift of salvation???????
Yes that is conflating the two. Obedience is an act of faith , its faith in action proving ones faith is genuine as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and James 2.

Without Holiness no one will see the Lord !

Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:

Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.



Peters Teaching

1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

hope this helps !!!
 

Carbon

Well-known member
If you means works of merit by "works salvation" then you are wrong for obedience is not a work of merit. Was Noah's building the ark a work of merit whereby God OWED him salvation from the flood? No. building the ark was Noah obeying God, Noah was simply doing what he was supposed to do in order to receive God's free gift of salvation from the flood. Building the ark earned nothing. Doing what you are supposed to be doing (obeying God's will) earns you nothing.

Lk 17:10 even after the servant has done all commanded him he is still an unprofitable servant. Noah obeyed all commanded him (Gen 6:22) but was still an unprofitable servant. Even after obeying in building the ark, even doing all commanded him he was still unprofitable, God still owed him nothing whereby the saving of his house was by grace but God required Noah build the ark to receive His grace and God will show mercy to those who obey, Jer 18:8.

It remains a Biblical fact that obedience to God and works of merit are not the same thing.
Hello?

Nice try. 🙂
 
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