Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation

Gomer

Active member
Yes that is conflating the two. Obedience is an act of faith , its faith in action proving ones faith is genuine as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and James 2.

Without Holiness no one will see the Lord !

Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments


And if we substituted "works of merit" for obedience in these cited verses above it creates ludicrous, illogical ideas....

Ye are my friends if ye do works of merit
Blessed are those who hear the words of God and do works of merit
If ye love me ye will do works if merit
 
G

guest1

Guest
And if we substituted "works of merit" for obedience in these cited verses above it creates ludicrous, illogical ideas....

Ye are my friends if ye do works of merit
Blessed are those who hear the words of God and do works of merit
If ye love me ye will do works if merit
Amen brother
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
So much for the Scriptures.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Pay attention to verse 8.

King David should have been killed. He found mercy. Not that he didn't suffer. He did, but had no where to boast of anything he ever did.

One "Oh Boy"..... destroys all the "attaboy's" you get in this life.

How did you get a work based salvational argument from my post?
 

Howie

Well-known member
Why did you put words in my mouth I never said?
If I did, forgive me.

Christ saves but He only saves those that obey him.
The falsity of your position is more evident every time you add another detail to it.

God saves, THE UNGODLY, (Rom 4:5; cf Rom 5:8).

Obedient people don't need salvation. You should repent of your false belief.
 

Howie

Well-known member
The CONTEXT surrounding Rom 4:5 has to do with works of the OT law.
Baloney -- 10 commandments, you ever worshipped false gods or idols, disrespected your parents, told a lie, stole something, coveted something belonging to someone else? Of course you have (Rom 3:10ff)

Paul is talking about YOU!!!

Paul therefore is not eliminating obedience to justification but eliminating perfect, flawless works as required by the OT to justification. From Rom 3 the Jews were given the OT law and it was as advantage to them over the Gentiles, yet that OT law could not justify the Jew for it required perfect flawless works to be justified by it therefore leaving the Jew under sin as the Gentile v9. Paul in Rom 3 is contrasting the flawless works the OT required to be justified to an obedient faith that does justify as Abraham had and is making this same contrast in Rom 4:5..."worketh not" contrasted to a faithful "believeth"

So who will the Lord not impute sin? to the obedient man who repents of his sins as David was repentant of his sins and God forgave him, justified him and that justification came apart from the OT law and its work requirement of perfect flawless law keeping....obedience contrasted from the work of perfect flawless law keeping.
God saves ungodly sinners (Rom 4:5; 5:8).
 
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