Does man have the power to limit the work of God?

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Wow, the above is remarkable theological ineptitude on display.
To use a Theoism, “Thank you for the insult!”

What do you think “If you hear his voice” means if not that God is seeking them, wanting to do something? Does God just speak to hear the sound of his own voice? Are his words ever without purpose or desire to accomplish something?

And what would “do not harden your hearts” mean if they didn’t have a volitional choice to make? Is hardening our heart of our own volition not possible? If God wants us to harden our hearts, why does he tell us not to? If God had determined that we will harden our hearts, what real meaning is in the prohibition if we cannot go against his decree?

It’s not theological rocket science, p4t, it’s simple common sense reading of the text!

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I kinda figured some would take the title of the op and turn it into a free will debate.

But what about this part of it? You free willers have no issue dropping this junk throughout the A/C section. But the topic is here just for that purpose.
If you can, show me with scripture the Holy Spirit cannot regenerate before faith because man is sinful. And the Spirit wouldn’t dare enter before he believes because of sin?

@TibiasDad ?

The title of the thread is “Does man have the power to limit the work of God?” The opening paragraphs of the OP says,
I believe the answer to the topic is- NO!
Not in any way, shape or form.
Our God does as He pleases and is not subject to man or any molecule in the universe.

Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases. Psalm 115:3.

My answer has been yes, and I have shown why I believe this from scripture and why I believe my assertions are quite consistent with Psalm 115:3! God does do all that he pleases! Giving man a choice does not “subject” God “to man”, for it is God’s sovereign choice to do so! The volition of man is still under the auspices and providence of God, that it why it is limited in scope and power!

That works can never save or obligate God to save is evidence of the limits of man’s choice! God never has to do or allow what we choose—never!

I need not win an argument; that’s not my goal nor within my capacity. I’ve stated my reasoning and that’s all I can do. The reader’s response is their own! (Or perhaps not?) 🤔

Doug
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The title of the thread is “Does man have the power to limit the work of God?” The opening paragraphs of the OP says,
Yes it is and I know what it says.
My answer has been yes,
Yes I know what your answer is to that.
I know you believe man has the ability to limit God’s work because God gave them permission to do so.
and I have shown why I believe this from scripture and why I believe my assertions are quite consistent with Psalm 115:3! God does do all that he pleases!
I’m not denying you show anything. You have showed what and why you believe such.
God does all He pleases as long as He don’t violate man’s free will.
Giving man a choice does not “subject” God “to man”, for it is God’s sovereign choice to do so! The volition of man is still under the auspices and providence of God, that it why it is limited in scope and power!
So man has free will and is sovereign but it’s limited free will and sovereignty. Okay, got ya.
That works can never save or obligate God to save is evidence of the limits of man’s choice!
Yes I can see that is what you believe Doug.
God can play God as long as He don’t violate man’s limited choice.
God never has to do or allow what we choose—never!
So that’s how it’s limited? Even if man makes a free will decision God don’t necessarily save? He still has the right to not save? So God still has some say in it. That’s great. At least God set things up so He has limitations on equal grounds. Or pretty close to equal. You do things My way and I just might save you.
I need not win an argument; that’s not my goal nor within my capacity.
Thats good Doug. Because I can’t see you winning one based on scripture.
I’ve stated my reasoning and that’s all I can do. The reader’s response is their own! (Or perhaps not?) 🤔

Doug
Lol.

Yes, I see you stated your reasoning on the points you chose to state your reasoning on.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
To use a Theoism, “Thank you for the insult!”
And you never cast an insult?
What do you think “If you hear his voice” means if not that God is seeking them, wanting to do something? Does God just speak to hear the sound of his own voice? Are his words ever without purpose or desire to accomplish something?
Would you be kind enough to show some passages where God audibly speaks to us? I’m curious which of the many, many times God speaks to us verbally that we would think He just wants to hear His own voice?
I just can’t remember hearing God speak to me audibly.
And what would “do not harden your hearts” mean if they didn’t have a volitional choice to make?
Doug, your taking apart scripture. Read these in context. You have the same habit of another on this site. Will you be following along copy and pasting as well?
Is hardening our heart of our own volition not possible? If God wants us to harden our hearts, why does he tell us not to?
Well Doug, if we’re believers, we won’t. What God started in us, He promises to bring to completion. Does God not fulfill His promises?
If you read the context you would know who those who harden their hearts are, unbelievers.
If God had determined that we will harden our hearts, what real meaning is in the prohibition if we cannot go against his decree?
You mean like Pharaoh?
It’s not theological rocket science, p4t, it’s simple common sense reading of the text!

Doug
If that’s all it is, why not read the context? Let it speak for itself?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Amen!
But some will have no problem twisting your words up as well.
Those words are pretty clear; but they are twistable. They will say it's based on a Gentile proverb. They'll say we must teach Pantheism. They'll say it means God is close; but not THAT close...

Acts 17:28 NIV; For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring'

God is THIS close; All are in His Will. It applies to All since All are without an excuse...
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
I pray God turns the light on for some! Plainly many cannot distinguish between descriptive and prescriptive texts. Likewise many cannot see that God set out to save all of His elect, and not one ounce of salvation lies within the power of man, choice, or will.

Salvation is all of God, it is revealed in Scripture all that He has done within us by grace, even while we were yet, at that moment, dead in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:5-7. Read in that all the things God did in us and for us while we were dead in sin. Nothing in there credits man's decisional choice.

Read carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. It is plain in that passage that God elected us, that it is all Him, which is the expression of the true Gospel. How some on here can read that passage and still deny God has elected us is remarkably disturbing. One denies it to the point of saying only Christ was elected, not us. That is an unashamed attack on the true Gospel, ways of God, and His grace.

Finney's decisionalism (New Measures) has had a devastatingly negative impact on the true Gospel. The hatred of the details of Gospel truth is unbelievable, especially seeing it coming via professing believers. Election and predestination are hated by these same, and it is sad to watch them twist and distort these truths. How the Wesley's became such heroes of the faith while outright denying election and predestination is beyond me.

Samuel E. Pierce wrote of the denial of Gospel truths, the details thereof, in his commentary on 1 John, and his statement is striking and solemn, laying an undeniable indictment upon those who reject these biblical spiritual truths. Give God all the glory, stop denying Biblical truth.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And his in his providence he has provided the right to refuse him to do what he wants to do!

Doug
Amen. But doesn't God's Right of Refusal pre-exist our Right of Refusal; since we're Condemned already? The Condemned of God HAVE no Rights, so they wouldn't have the Right of Refusal; correct?

We THINK we have the Right of Refusal...

Don't you agree that before the Application of Prevenient Grace, you actually had NO Right to refuse God; though out of your Enmity you refused God daily?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I pray God turns the light on for some! Plainly many cannot distinguish between descriptive and prescriptive texts. Likewise many cannot see that God set out to save all of His elect, and not one ounce of salvation lies within the power of man, choice, or will.

Salvation is all of God, it is revealed in Scripture all that He has done within us by grace, even while we were yet, at that moment, dead in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:5-7. Read in that all the things God did in us and for us while we were dead in sin. Nothing in there credits man's decisional choice.

Read carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. It is plain in that passage that God elected us, that it is all Him, which is the expression of the true Gospel. How some on here can read that passage and still deny God has elected us is remarkably disturbing. One denies it to the point of saying only Christ was elected, not us. That is an unashamed attack on the true Gospel, ways of God, and His grace.

Finney's decisionalism (New Measures) has had a devastatingly negative impact on the true Gospel. The hatred of the details of Gospel truth is unbelievable, especially seeing it coming via professing believers. Election and predestination are hated by these same, and it is sad to watch them twist and distort these truths. How the Wesley's became such heroes of the faith while outright denying election and predestination is beyond me.

Samuel E. Pierce wrote of the denial of Gospel truths, the details thereof, in his commentary on 1 John, and his statement is striking and solemn, laying an undeniable indictment upon those who reject these biblical spiritual truths. Give God all the glory, stop denying Biblical truth.
So you are saying that to not agree with the Doctrines of Grace is to preach a false gospel? How can anyone be a true believer without being a Calvinist?

Is not our rejection of this alleged desire of God a demonstration of my capacity to keep God from doing what he wants to do, thus falsifying the premise of the OP?

Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It seems that Calvinist while claiming that God is in control of everything, deny Him the right to put anything in our hands.

This is proof that seth is more interested in arguing, and projecting straw-man arguments onto people, than in productive discussion and accurately representing his opponents.

We are not denying the "right" of God to do anything.
We are simply pointing out what God CHOSE not to do.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Carbon, you don't seem to understand your own theology or comprehend the significance of my argument to yours. If man had free will to choose what he wanted to eat and to name the animals that God had created,

Where does Scripture teach, "man had free will"?

For 30 years I've noticed the same fatal flaw, that Arminians are forced to ASSUME their doctrine of "free will", and INSERT it into Scripture, since it doesn't appear there naturally.

then a) God could not usurp those decisions from man's will,

Where does Scripture teach, "God could not usurp those decisions"?

Again, the Arminian is forced to ASSUME their theology, and project false doctrines into Scripture which don't otherwise appear there.

and b) those decisions cannot have been determined by God by decree, otherwise his saying that they are free is meaningless and/or misleading, especially pre-fall!

That is nothing but irrational rationalization, and the fallacy of "begging the question".

"If saying that man is free doesn't mean libertarian free will, then it can't mean anything else!"

They clearly demonstrate, and that explicitly, that God allows man to choose for himself certain things. Things that God does not predetermine to be chosen!

Where does Scripture read, "God does not predetermine to be chosen"?

I can't find that ANYWHERE.

Pre or post fall is irrelevant.

Great!
So you're not an Arminian, you're a Pelagian!
Thanks for the correction.

The aspects of the image of God that we were created in do not disappear after the fall. We are still relational, volitional, creative beings, and thus our limited range of sovereign choice also remains. Yes, it is marred by sin, but it still exists as a functional quality!

Wow!

Where does Scripture speak of man's imaginary "limited range of sovereign choice"?!

We are definitely NOT reading the same Bible!

I have simply established that some decisions are left to the volition of man.

Nope...

I really don't think you have.

Hebrews says "If you hear his voice", which means God is speaking, wanting to accomplish something, "do not harden your hearts" as their ancestors "did in the rebellion" shows that thwarting God is very possible and has been done repeatedly!

How does it allegedly "show" this?

You apparently don't realize that everything you've posted here comes directly from your very creative imagination, and NONE of it comes from the Bible.

Isa 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people..

And?!
Are you simply quoting random verses now?

Matt 13:58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

And?!
Are you simply quoting random verses now?

Both of these show man's negative effect on God's reaching out to them.

You are ASSUMING that God wanted to save them in the first place.

Assumption, assumption, assumption...
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
So you are saying that to not agree with the Doctrines of Grace is to preach a false gospel? How can anyone be a true believer without being a Calvinist?
I spoke of denying biblical truths, two specifically. Do you recall what they were?
Is not our rejection of this alleged desire of God a demonstration of my capacity to keep God from doing what he wants to do, thus falsifying the premise of the OP?
"Alleged desire of God?" Do you realize how that sounds, sir?

So you're lost, doing your own will, not His, living hostile toward Him; Romans 8:8; Colossians 1:21? You're speaking of the state of a lost man.

Or did God save you out of that while you were still dead in trespasses and sin, carrying out the desires of the body and mind, a child of wrath; Ephesians 2:1-7? What are all those things He did in saving us while we were dead in sins?
God bless!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Makes one want to bang ones head against the wall reading these man made doctrines and teachings, "limited range of sovereign choice," "free will choosing," "God could not usurp those decisions from man's will."

Strange teachings not found in Scripture.

Yep, they teach God can't, then teach man can. God "could not." Unbelievable. Or is it just plain unbelief?

Some need to reread Matthew 19:25-26 "...Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Makes one want to bang ones head against the wall reading these man made doctrines and teachings, "limited range of sovereign choice," "free will choosing," "God could not usurp those decisions from man's will."

Strange teachings not found in Scripture.

Yep, they teach God can't, then teach man can. God "could not." Unbelievable. Or is it just plain unbelief?

Some need to reread Matthew 19:25-26 "...Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Yes sometimes certain people expose themselves well.

Trying to avoid one thing and exposing themselves elsewhere.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I’m still waiting for those who believe man has to first believe before the Spirit will enter them and cause regeneration.
In light of Job 34 below.


Job 34:14-15,
If he should set his heart to it
and gather to himself his spirit and his breath,
all flesh would perish together,
and man would return to dust.
 
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