Does Philemon 1:14 Prove Mans Will Is Free... From God?

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
None of them verses say a person is saved from their sins by the preaching of the Gospel. Christ saves His People from their sins Matt 1 21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
 
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TomFL

Guest
None of them verses say a person is saved from their sins by the preaching of the Gospel. Christ saves His People from their sins Matt 1 21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Better read scripture rather than responding out of your theology

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Better read scripture rather than responding out of your theology

He does.
You simply reject it, because you prefer theology over Scripure.

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

"everyone that believeth".
What is your evidence that this includes anyone other than "His people", "the sheep"?

Jesus already explained to you that only His sheep believe (John 10:26).

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

And the sheep will respond by believing.
What's the problem?
 
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TomFL

Guest
He does.
You simply reject it, because you prefer theology over Scripure.

As he has ignored countless verses your claim acks credibility
"everyone that believeth".
What is your evidence that this includes anyone other than "His people", "the sheep"?

You lack understanding who his sheep were

God's was in the process of handing over to Christ those that were his - his sheep

The were not some unconditionally chosen people
Jesus already explained to you that only His sheep believe (John 10:26).

See above

If they believed God they would have believed Jesus
And the sheep will respond by believing.
What's the problem?

Your understanding of who the sheep were

They ere not unconditionally chosen men but followers of God who were being giving to Jesus by the father
 

Sketo

Well-known member
But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

What keeps a believer enduring to the end in order to be saved?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

“it is the power... to believers” not unbelievers!
Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with making believers... It has everything to do with the power of keeping believers enduring to the end in order to be saved!


For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

This is how we endure!
 

Sketo

Well-known member
This is the definition

Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

Is this definition referring to pre fall Adam’s will?

Or is this definition referring to post fall Adam’s will?

Or does the fall not affect the “agent”, or any factor thereof, at all?

Basically does the fall, or sin, have any affect on your definition?
 
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TomFL

Guest
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

“it is the power... to believers” not unbelievers!
Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with making believers... It has everything to do with the power of keeping believers enduring to the end in order to be saved!

Making believers no but noting the gospel is the power of God for salvation yes

We have a pecking order here

Gospel -------> Faith --------> salvation
 
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TomFL

Guest
Is this definition referring to pre fall Adam’s will?

Or is this definition referring to post fall Adam’s will?

Or does the fall not affect the “agent”, or any factor thereof, at all?

Basically does the fall, or sin, have any affect on your definition?

Well if you read the definition


Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

It can be seen it does take into account we live in a fallen world and that sin does have an effect

Further if you read the whole op you will note the mention of will setting moment which can result in a loss of freedom

and also the loss of freedom of integrity 0 the ability to be what you wish to be

So sin is very much a factor taken into consideration
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Well if you read the definition


Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

It can be seen it does take into account we live in a fallen world and that sin does have an effect
It seems to say that “agent” is only affected indirectly from the “fallen world”... not directly!
Does sin have an effect from within the “agent” or only from without?

Further if you read the whole op you will note the mention of will setting moment which can result in a loss of freedom

and also the loss of freedom of integrity 0 the ability to be what you wish to be

So sin is very much a factor taken into consideration

Specifically...

Does the fall, and sin, affect the “agent” internally, or any factor thereof, at all?

or does it only affect the “world” external to the “agent”?

Basically does sin affect the “character”, “nature”, and/or “will” of the “agent” directly?
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Sketo


The preserving Grace and Power of God! 1 Pet 1 5

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
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TomFL

Guest
It seems to say that “agent” is only affected indirectly from the “fallen world”... not directly!
Does sin have an effect from within the “agent” or only from without?
If you read all the op on the definition of LFW you will not how it speaks of how certain personal decisions lead to a loss of freedom that is directly

Sin affects the character directly

So there is no need for you to read anything into the definition


Specifically...

Does the fall, and sin, affect the “agent” internally, or any factor thereof, at all?

or does it only affect the “world” external to the “agent”?

Basically does sin affect the “character”, “nature”, and/or “will” of the “agent” directly?

Already answered

So there is no need for you to continue with this particular line of inquiry
 

Sketo

Well-known member
If you read all the op on the definition of LFW you will not how it speaks of how certain personal decisions lead to a loss of freedom that is directly
I don’t actually see it can you help?

Basically does sin affect the “character”, “nature”, and/or “will” of the “agent” directly?
 
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TomFL

Guest
I don’t actually see it can you help?

Basically does sin affect the “character”, “nature”, and/or “will” of the “agent” directly?
You were plainly answered

Sin affects the character directly
 

Sketo

Well-known member
You were plainly answered
I don’t know about “plainly”. It wasn’t “plain” to me!
It still seams vague.
Sin affects the character directly
But not the “will” directly?

How does this affect the internal decision process of the “agent”?

Is the internal decision process different before the fall as opposed to after the fall?

If so in what way is it different?
 
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TomFL

Guest
I don’t know about “plainly”. It wasn’t “plain” to me!
It still seams vague.

But not the “will” directly?

How does this affect the internal decision process of the “agent”?

Is the internal decision process different before the fall as opposed to after the fall?

If so in what way is it different?
Well maybe you do not wish to see

Sin affects the character directly

and may lead to a loss of freedom
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Well maybe you do not wish to see

Sin affects the character directly

and may lead to a loss of freedom
So no difference to the “will” directly?
So that means NO internal difference to the “agent” pre fall vs post fall?
Only external difference pre fall vs post fall?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

What keeps a believer enduring to the end in order to be saved?
Their own will primarily, but assisted by the grace of God. Without the assistance of the grace of God, no one could "endure to the end" to be saved; but the grace of God cannot assist anyone against their own will (libertarian freewill) to "endure to the end" either.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

“it is the power... to believers” not unbelievers!
Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with making believers... It has everything to do with the power of keeping believers enduring to the end in order to be saved!
But not against their own will (libertarian freewill). They still have the power and the will, if they want to, at any time, to reject God, turn against Jesus, and be damned.
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

This is how we endure!
Sure. But do they have a choice in the matter, a libertarian free choice? The answer is of course yes.
 
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TomFL

Guest
So no difference to the “will” directly?
So that means NO internal difference to the “agent” pre fall vs post fall?
Only external difference pre fall vs post fall?

How in the world did you arrive at the absurdity there is no difference pre or post fall

It was not from anything I stated so

Please stop trying to misrepresent my position

less it be thought you do this intentionally
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Their own will primarily, but assisted by the grace of God. Without the assistance of the grace of God, no one could "endure to the end" to be saved; but the grace of God cannot assist anyone against their own will (libertarian freewill) to "endure to the end" either.
So are they “born again” during the “enduring”?
But not against their own will (libertarian freewill). They still have the power and the will, if they want to, at any time, to reject God, turn against Jesus, and be damned.
Does this mean they become un-“born again”?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
How in the world did you arrive at the absurdity there is no difference pre or post fall

It was not from anything I stated so

Please stop trying to misrepresent my position

less it be thought you do this intentionally
I apologize for my misunderstanding...

So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly?
Does that mean there is an internal difference to the “agent” pre fall vs post fall?
Or is it only external difference pre fall vs post fall?
 
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