Does Philemon 1:14 Prove Mans Will Is Free... From God?

zerinus

Well-known member
Is this definition referring to pre fall Adam’s will?

Or is this definition referring to post fall Adam’s will?
Distinguishing between pre-fall and post-fall "will" is not a useful distinction. The Atonement of Jesus Christ has "freed" the will of all men to accept or reject the gospel when the Holy Ghost bears witness to them.
Or does the fall not affect the “agent”, or any factor foot thereof, at all?
It does, but it can be freed from it by following the procedure outlined above.
Basically does the fall, or sin, have any affect on your definition?
His "definition" is irrelevant as far as the principles of the gospel is concerned, as outlined in scripture.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The Atonement of Jesus Christ has "freed" the will of all men to accept or reject the gospel when the Holy Ghost bears witness to them.
Does this mean that there was a time when the “will” was not-“free”?

If so how was it “not free”?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
So are they “born again” during the “enduring”?
They become "born again" when they are fully converted, receive the fulness of the gospel, and begin the path or journey towards their final destiny which is eternal life and salvation in the kingdom of God in heaven.
Does this mean they become un-“born again”?
You are reading into the concept of being "born again" something that is not meant to be there. You are mislead by the concept "instant salvation" which Evangelicals are indoctrinated with. Remember the parable of the sower in the New Testament. It is not a "one size fits all". All who receive the gospel message do not bear the same "fruit". Some bear zero fruit and are completely rejected. But ultimately to "endure to the end" means to remain true to the gospel to the end of one’s life without apostatizing altogether, or committing the unpardonable sin. Having been "born again" does not prevent you from doing that. Indeed, you could say the the primary way of committing the unpardonable sin is to knowingly and wilfully reject God after one has been "born again". Remember that the "devils also believe, and tremble".
 

Sketo

Well-known member
They become "born again" when they are fully converted, receive the fulness of the gospel, and begin the path or journey towards their final destiny which is eternal life and salvation in the kingdom of God in heaven.

You are reading into the concept of being "born again" something that is not meant to be there. You are mislead by the concept "instant salvation" which Evangelicals are indoctrinated with. Remember the parable of the sower in the New Testament. It is not a "one size fits all". All who receive the gospel message do not bear the same "fruit". Some bear zero fruit and are completely rejected. But ultimately to "endure to the end" means to remain true to the gospel to the end of one’s life without apostatizing altogether, or committing the unpardonable sin. Having been "born again" does not prevent you from doing that. Indeed, you could say the the primary way of committing the unpardonable sin is to knowingly and wilfully reject God after one has been "born again". Remember that the "devils also believe, and tremble".
So it is possible, in your understanding, that who are “born again” could end up in hell?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Does this mean that there was a time when the “will” was not-“free”?

If so how was it “not free”?
I said the Atonement of Jesus Christ has "freed" the will; and since the Atonement has already been accomplished, there never was a time when the will was not free to accept or reject the gospel message when it is accompanied by witness of the Holy Ghost.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
So it is possible, in your understanding, that who are “born again” could end up in hell?
Yes. Nobody's "salvation" is guaranteed until they have "endured to the end," and entered the kingdom of God in heaven.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I apologize for my misunderstanding...

So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly?
Does that mean there is an internal difference to the “agent” pre fall vs post fall?
Or is it only external difference pre fall vs post fall?
I already told you

the op already told you

how certain actions can lead to the loss of free will and cause one to lose the ability to be what you want to be

Therefore a desire to do right in certain circumstances can be lost through abuse of free will

(The op spoke of will setting moments and loss of integrity)

The character is effected directly internally
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I already told you

the op already told you

how certain actions can lead to the loss of free will and cause one to lose the ability to be what you want to be

Therefore a desire to do right in certain circumstances can be lost through abuse of free will

(The op spoke of will setting moments and loss of integrity)

The character is effected directly internally
Yeah but that doesn’t quite answer...
So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly?
Does that mean there is an internal difference of the “will” pre fall vs post fall?
Or is it only external difference pre fall vs post fall such that the “will” is the same post fall as it was pre fall?

I will make it easy for you...

1) Yes, sin does affect the will directly such that pre fall “will” is different than post fall “will”.

2) No, sin does not affect the will directly such that pre fall “will” is the same as post fall “will”.

1 or 2 TomFL?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yeah but that doesn’t quite answer...
So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly?
Does that mean there is an internal difference of the “will” pre fall vs post fall?

I have already answered this if you choose to not see the answer that is on you

Why don't you deal with the fact

You have agreed God does not determine all of man's sinful desires

therefore God does not determine all things

therefore if man has a desire it is a result of his own free will entertaining the desire and agreeing to it

thus establishing a case for free will
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I have already answered this if you choose to not see the answer that is on you
If you don’t mind, for convenience, would you quote your clearly stated answers to these questions...

So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly?
Does that mean there is an internal difference of the “will” pre fall vs post fall?
Or is it only external difference pre fall vs post fall such that the “will” is the same post fall as it was pre fall?

I will make it easy for you...

1) Yes, sin does affect the will directly such that pre fall “will” is different than post fall “will”.

2) No, sin does not affect the will directly such that pre fall “will” is the same as post fall “will”.

1 or 2 TomFL?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
If you don’t mind, for convenience, would you quote your clearly stated answers to these questions...

I do mind

Your question was answered

One last time

the op already told you

how certain actions can lead to the loss of free will and cause one to lose the ability to be what you want to be

Therefore a desire to do right in certain circumstances can be lost through abuse of free will

(The op spoke of will setting moments and loss of integrity)

The character is effected directly internally
 

Sketo

Well-known member
how certain actions can lead to the loss of free will and cause one to lose the ability to be what you want to be
“Certain” is vague though. Does “certain” include the action of Adam resulting in “the fall”?

So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly... irrespective of the “fallen world”?

Does that mean there is an internal difference of the “will” pre fall vs post fall appart from the association to the “fallen world”?

Or is it only external “fallen world” difference pre fall vs post fall such that the “will” is the same condition post fall as it was pre fall?

Therefore a desire to do right in certain circumstances can be lost through abuse of free will
This does not give any indication that the fall directly affects “will” apart from the “fallen world.

(The op spoke of will setting moments and loss of integrity)
Again... is the “fall” a “Will setting” moment?
The character is effected directly internally
Yeah... but that doesn’t quite say anything about the “will” now does it?

This could mean that the “character” is internal, but not directly affected by the “fall”, only merely by direct association to the “fallen world”!

Your answer is not clear as to the condition of the “character” or the “will” pre fall vs post fall.

So is internal condition of the “will”, post fall, different from the internal condition of the “will”, pre fall?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
“Certain” is vague though. Does “certain” include the action of Adam resulting in “the fall”?

So is there a difference specifically to the “will” directly... irrespective of the “fallen world”?

Does that mean there is an internal difference of the “will” pre fall vs post fall appart from the association to the “fallen world”?

Or is it only external “fallen world” difference pre fall vs post fall such that the “will” is the same condition post fall as it was pre fall?


This does not give any indication that the fall directly affects “will” apart from the “fallen world.

What do you think the term world refers to if not the people of the world



You were already answered regarding sins direct effect

The character is effected directly internally
 

Sketo

Well-known member
What do you think the term world refers to if not the people of the world

You were already answered regarding sins direct effect

The character is effected directly internally
How does the “will condition change”, pre fall to post fall affect the decision process differently from either situation?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
How does the “will condition change”, pre fall to post fall affect the decision process differently from either situation?
Previous to the fall man did not have a sin nature; post fall he did

Continued sin leads to further loss of the freedom of integrity
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Previous to the fall man did not have a sin nature; post fall he did (have a sin nature)
First. Thank you for the direct non-vague answer!

Second. Could I assume that this also means...
the “will”, post fall, is a “sin will” also?

“Sin nature” = sin character = sin will
 

Sketo

Well-known member
“Sin nature” = sin character = sin will
“Sin nature” = sin character = sin “set of choices” + sin will = sin final choice landed upon! (Just like satan)...

... unless God Graciously intervenes causing a different choice to occur!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
First. Thank you for the direct non-vague answer!

Second. Could I assume that this also means...
the “will”, post fall, is a “sin will” also?

“Sin nature” = sin character = sin will
Well I will agree the will will gravitate toward sinful choices because the character is bad, the nature is bad

so the choices are bad

I am not sure we can say the will is therefore sinful itself as opposed to the process that drive it are bad

I guess it is a question of where the sin resides

I am open to evidence on this
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Well I will agree the will will gravitate toward sinful choices because the character is bad, the nature is bad

so the choices are bad

I am not sure we can say the will is therefore sinful itself as opposed to the process that drive it are bad
I’m not sure how the “will” would escape the process of deduction...
I guess it is a question of where the sin resides

I am open to evidence on this
Basically no matter what the condition of the will is, in your system, it can only choose from the “set of options” available...
and if the “character” that determines the “set of options” available is “bad” then the “will” has no other choice.

... unless God Graciously intervenes.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - 1 Corinthians 15:10
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I’m not sure how the “will” would escape the process of deduction...

Basically no matter what the condition of the will is, in your system, it can only choose from the “set of options” available...
and if the “character” that determines the “set of options” available is “bad” then the “will” has no other choice.

And so ?

Is that not what I stated ?

Do you have a point ?
 
Top