Does Regeneration Precede... “Will Be Saved”?

Sketo

Active member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sketo

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

The quickening precedes the calling on the name of the Lord Ps 80:18

So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

A lifeless person cannot call upon the name of the Lord. Calling is an act that evidences life
 

TomFL

Well-known member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
That would depend on the context

Regeneration is the impartation of new life and a purified heart

If the "saving" spoken of provides this then it equates to regeneration
 

Sketo

Active member
That would depend on the context
So, specifically, do you believe that Romans 10:13 supports this claim?
Do you believe that “will be saved”, in Romans 10:13, is synonymous with
If the "saving" spoken of provides this then it equates to regeneration
And if it doesn’t... is it a different kind of “saving”?

Is there evidence of a ““saving” that is spoken of” that provides this? Not assumed but clearly evidenced?

Regeneration is the impartation of new life and a purified heart
How is your definition above distinguished from the “will be saved” in the verses that say...

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

If you are correct then couldn’t this verse also read...
But the one who endures to the end will be regenerated. Or is this a different kind of “saving”?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So, specifically, do you believe that Romans 10:13 supports this claim?
Do you believe that “will be saved”, in Romans 10:13, is synonymous with

And if it doesn’t... is it a different kind of “saving”?

Is there evidence of a ““saving” that is spoken of” that provides this? Not assumed but clearly evidenced?


How is your definition above distinguished from the “will be saved” in the verses that say...

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

If you are correct then couldn’t this verse also read...
But the one who endures to the end will be regenerated. Or is this a different kind of “saving”?
First I never stated Mat 24:13 refers to regeneration

Sozo - saved carries a range of meanings

4982 ἐκσῴζω, σῴζω [sozo /sode·zo/] v. From a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, “safe”); TDNT 7:965; TDNTA 1132; GK 1751 and 5392; 110 occurrences; AV translates as “save” 93 times, “make whole” nine times, “heal” three times, “be whole” twice, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction. 1A one (from injury or peril). 1A1 to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health. 1B1 to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue. 1B to save in the technical biblical sense. 1B1 negatively. 1B1A to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment. 1B1B to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

and as for Ro 10:13

Romans 10:4–13 (KJV 1900)
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The context indicates - 1B to save in the technical biblical sense.

That would of course include regeneration

Note however salvation is a broader term than regeneration

regeneration provides for a new life and a purified heart at the onset of salvation

So it would be correct to state salvation in the fullest biblical sense includes regeneration but
not correct to substitute regeneration for salvation

As for Mat 24:13 depending upon ones eschatology and/or soteriology one could probably argue for temporal or eternal salvation and/or see a possible application for either
 
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zerinus

Active member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...
I believe the answer is yes, but those are not the best proof texts for supporting the doctrine that faith precedes regeneration. A better proof text is:

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


After faith has been acquired by the hearing of the word of God, regeneration then follows faith. This is made even more clear in the parable of the sower, taught in Matthew 13:18–23; Mark 4:14–20; Luke 8:11–15. I will quote the shortest version from Luke:

Luke 8:

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


When the "seed" of the word of God is sown, what kind of "fruit" is borne afterwards will depend on worthiness and preparedness of the "receiver". It has nothing to do with "regeneration" first. The "good ground" includes honesty, having a good heart, and "keeping" the word received. Then the "fruits" follow, which includes regeneration.
Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
To "endure to the end" means remaining true to the gospel after one has received it (and regenerated by it). "Once saved, always saved" is not a biblical doctrine. As the parable of the sower shows, it is possible to receive the word of God in faith, and even rejoice in it for a time; but afterwards fall away. The "falling away" can occur due to a number of factors outlined in the parable. They include temptation, hardness of heart, cares of the world, persecution etc. So the short answer is that faith precedes regeneration, not the other way.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I believe the answer is yes, but those are not the best proof texts for supporting the doctrine that faith precedes regeneration. A better proof text is:

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


After faith has been acquired by the hearing of the word of God, regeneration then follows faith. This is made even more clear in the parable of the sower, taught in Matthew 13:18–23; Mark 4:14–20; Luke 8:11–15. I will quote the shortest version from Luke:

Luke 8:

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


When the "seed" of the word of God is sown, what kind of "fruit" is borne afterwards will depend on worthiness and preparedness of the "receiver". It has nothing to do with "regeneration" first. The "good ground" includes honesty, having a good heart, and "keeping" the word received. Then the "fruits" follow, which includes regeneration.

To "endure to the end" means remaining true to the gospel after one has received it (and regenerated by it). "Once saved, always saved" is not a biblical doctrine. As the parable of the sower shows, it is possible to receive the word of God in faith, and even rejoice in it for a time; but afterwards fall away. The "falling away" can occur due to a number of factors outlined in the parable. They include temptation, hardness of heart, cares of the world, persecution etc. So the short answer is that faith precedes regeneration, not the other way.
The honest and good heart is the new heart given in new birth. Man's heart naturally is anything but good and honest. Jer 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So the parable in Matt 13 the difference in the ground support regeneration before faith!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
Scripture once again showing Faith and repentance precede regeneration which is a new life , a purified heart and the onset of salvation

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.”



John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”



John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”



John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility,


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Scripture once again showing Faith and repentance precede regeneration which is a new life , a purified heart and the onset of salvation

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.”



John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”



John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”



John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility,


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…”
It's obvious that you have not understood or studied not one of those scriptures and you have not shown how they support your error.
 

zerinus

Active member
The honest and good heart is the new heart given in new birth. Man's heart naturally is anything but good and honest. Jer 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So the parable in Matt 13 the difference in the ground support regeneration before faith!
You are misquoting and misreading the Bible. It is possible to have a "good heart," without being "regenerated" first:

Matthew 12:

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Luke 6:

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It's obvious that you have not understood or studied not one of those scriptures and you have not shown how they support your error.
Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and just wanted to say something. In any case you did not deal with a single verse

Scripture once again showing Faith and repentance precede regeneration which is a new life , a purified heart and the onset of salvation

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.”



John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”



John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”



John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility,


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are misquoting and misreading the Bible. It is possible to have a "good heart," without being "regenerated" first:

Matthew 12:

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Luke 6:

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
No it is not. Man heart naturally is incurably evil. That's why God gives a new heart !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and just wanted to say something. In any case you did not deal with a single verse

Scripture once again showing Faith and repentance precede regeneration which is a new life , a purified heart and the onset of salvation

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.”



John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”



John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”



John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility,


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…”
You have not dealt with a single verse which is your motto.
 

zerinus

Active member
No it is not. Man heart naturally is incurably evil. That's why God gives a new heart !
The "new heart" is given after faith and repentance. But none of that means that nobody can have a good heart out of a good conscience. The Bible teaches that you don't even need to be believer or a Christian in order to have a good heart and a good conscience.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The "new heart" is given after faith and repentance. But none of that means that nobody can have a good heart out of a good conscience. The Bible teaches that you don't even need to be believer or a Christian in order to have a good heart and a good conscience.
The new heart is given before the gospel is preached to it. The Gospel message is received into the good heart Matt 13:23

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You have not dealt with a single verse which is your motto.
Its pretty obvious

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.”



John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”



John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”



John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility,


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…”

One of us finds value in properly applying the scriptures to the issue at hand. The other in just having anything at all to say
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Tom

Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
Where in here does it say faith is before regeneration?

Second, do you really believe a person, a nation can give to themselves a new heart and new Spirit?
 

zerinus

Active member
The new heart is given before the gospel is preached to it. The Gospel message is received into the good heart Matt 13:23

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty
You are simply in denial, and there is no way of answering that, except to repeat the affirmation. That gets boring after a while.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom


Where in here does it say faith is before regeneration?

Second, do you really believe a person, a nation can give to themselves a new heart and new Spirit?
What part of repent and live was not clear to you

They were to repent before they could receive life

They were called to do somethings before God would supply a new heart and a new Spirit

Ezek. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; 9so iniquity shall not be your 10ruin.
Ezek. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Turning (repenting) precedes The new heart and the New Spirit
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
What part of repent and live was not clear to you

They were to repent before they could receive life

They were called to do somethings before God would supply a new heart and a new Spirit

Ezek. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; 9so iniquity shall not be your 10ruin.
Ezek. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Turning (repenting) precedes The new heart and the New Spirit
You avoided the question. Where does it say faith and repentance comes before regeneration in Ezk u quoted?
 
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