Does Regeneration Precede... “Will Be Saved”?

brightfame52

Well-known member
The Bible says that people are responsible for the hardness of their own hearts:

Zechariah 7:

8 And the word of the Lord came unto Zechariah, saying,
9 Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.
13 Therefore it is come to pass, that as he [God] cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I [God] would not hear, saith the Lord of hosts:
14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.
Men naturally have hard hearts. Why you think God provides a new heart in it's stead? Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That is referring to "man" who passes unrighteous judgement. He is not saying that every man is passing unrighteous judgement. Some do and some don't. He is condemning the ones that do. He is not saying that everyone does.
That's all men naturally except for you
 

SteveB

Well-known member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
I've always understood the regeneration takes place at the same time as--- being saved.
Regeneration IS the act of saving us from our sin.

I like the way Ezekiel describes it in Ezek 36:25-27

I encourage you to read the entire chapter so you can see the context.

God is speaking to Ezekiel, and telling him what he will do for Israel.

Then
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean;
I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and

you will keep My judgments and do them.

It's ironic that it looks EXACTLY like what the new birth is.... John 3:3-5, Romans 8:3-9, 1 John, Galatians 5.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
That's written to the born again. That doesn't apply to the unregenerate. The scriptures are not written to the unregenerate.
You are saying the 'born again' do not have life?
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

e v e

Well-known member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

But does it???

Here’s another one that, at first glance, seams to suggest the same...

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

Have you ever used this verse, or heard this verse used, as a proof-text to prove “regeneration precedes faith” (RpF)?

So the question is - Is the phrase “will be saved” synonyms, or at least include, regeneration? Do you believe that these verses are good text to prove that (RpF)? If so, then I would like for you to consider, and remain consistent, in the implications of the following verses where the phrase “will be saved” is used... if you can...

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:21-22

Is the enduring here not due to faith? Where does regeneration fit? Before or after “the end”?

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Are there unregenerate “endurers” before the end? Are we “unregenerate” now because we have not reached the end... yet?

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

If “regeneration” comes after “faith”, as they claim... how far after is it? Is “regeneration after the “end” also?

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Again... when? After the “end”?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

What if you believe but are not yet baptized? Does this one mean that you can be an “unregenerate believer” before you are baptized because “will be saved” comes after “baptized”?

he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' - Acts 11:14

Again we must ask where does regeneration fit such that it does not contradict the verses that say “those who endure to the end”?

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?
it’s being saved from this fallen earth and eden restored.

by regenerated is meant, souls restored to their glorified body (of eden) at the Change.

the evangelic error “i’m already saved” is not biblical.
 

e v e

Well-known member
Not according to the words of God:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


The choice whether to harden your heart or not is yours. Nobody is going to impose that on you one way or another.
true... thank you.

by the false interpreting that men are passive and with no choice, the entire situation of sin and even being able to have sinned and even the concept of trying to find God....are all made moot.. on the belief in occasionalism. the main purveyor of that idea, which seems to pervade modern christianity in insidious fashion, was leibniz - yet another plato sychophant. the idea was that God does everything, there’s no choice. this was based on other pagan greek concepts in a cascading effect resulting in a mess. a horrible messed up enlightenment idea coming straight from satan.

the logic behind souls made by God having no choice to sin or to repent is greek and non christian.

souls can have a relationship with Him and are not as automatons that get programmed. He doesn’t want slaves. He wants sons.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Scripture is not for the natural man. It's for the babes in Christ, the lambs,
You ignored the point

The born again already have life

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

this passage puts belief before life
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

I’ve seen many use this verse as a proof text to show that “faith precedes regeneration” because, they say, the phrase “will be saved” means, or at least includes, “regeneration”.

It would appear that is the case... IF... “will be saved” is synonymous with regeneration... or at least includes it!

I think it's a very poor and inaccurate equivalency to equate "saved" with "regeneration".
I also think it's poor hermeneutics to try to arbitrarily redefine words that way in order to try to support a doctrinal point.

I much clearer verse that actually shows regeneration precedes faith is the following:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,

It's pretty clear.

Does “will be saved” mean “regenerated”?

No.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I think it's a very poor and inaccurate equivalency to equate "saved" with "regeneration".
I also think it's poor hermeneutics to try to arbitrarily redefine words that way in order to try to support a doctrinal point.

I much clearer verse that actually shows regeneration precedes faith is the following:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,

It's pretty clear.



No.
Regeneration refers to being born of God - the reception of new life

many verses previously supplied show faith precedes life

for example

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

The problem with John 5:1 is it is not telling one how it one is born again but is describing characteristics of one born again

David Allen referencing Greek scholar Brian Absciano notes
'
First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”

This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples.

John 3:18 furnishes another clear example: 'but whoever does not believe [present substantival participle] has been condemned [perfect Indicative] already because he has not believed [perfect indicative] in the name of the one and only son of God' . Again the text tells us explicitly that the action of the present participle (disbelieving) is the cause of the action of the perfect indicative (condemning).

Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar . . ..” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause.

Many Calvinists argue that the use of “born” in the perfect tense produces a range of results expressed by present participles, and faith is one of them. However, exegesis always trumps systematic theology. Likewise, context and sentence structure trumps theology. Let’s compare John 3:18 with 1 John 5:1 to see if the use of “born” in the perfect tense produces the result of faith. Notice the order of events in John 3:18 is A then B. In 1 John 5:1 the order is B then A. Both make use of the perfect tense. The same grammatical structure that places being born of God before faith can also be used to describe justification as occurring after faith. See Rom 5:1. The grammar of the verses does not address an ordo salutis. The use of the perfect tense in Greek provides no support for the notion of regeneration preceding faith.30 To suggest otherwise is to fail to distinguish between tense and aspect in Greek verbs and verbals David Allen quoting Brian Absciano

Put simply

Furthermore, with respect to 1 John 5:1, contextually the simple initial act of believing is not under consideration by John. John is talking about the ongoing life of faith as a believer. Obviously, the new birth precedes the ongoing life of faith.

The broader context of John’s writings indicate he would not teach that regeneration precedes faith and elsewhere teach that faith is a condition for life as he does in John 20:31. This precludes the possibility of regeneration preceding faith
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Regeneration refers to being born of God - the reception of new life

many verses previously supplied show faith precedes life

You continue to conflate "regeneration" with "eternal life".
As long as you do that, your conclusions will continue to be false.

The order is:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life.


First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results

That is precisely what the perfect tense DOES mean, regardless of your theological view.

and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”

Your non-Calvinist (ie. biased) commentator runs to John, when far better parallels are found in the immediate context:

1John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of him" doesn't come before "practicing righteousness" (ie. works-righteousness)?

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of God" doesn't come before "ceasing the practice of sinning" (ie. works-righteousness)?

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of God" doesn't come before "loves" (since we love, BECAUSE He first loved us)?

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.



This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples.

John 3:18 furnishes another clear example: 'but whoever does not believe [present substantival participle] has been condemned [perfect Indicative] already because he has not believed [perfect indicative] in the name of the one and only son of God' .

You are arbitrarily interpreting this in a non-Calvinist way.
It is perfectly reasonable to understand that the one being "condemned" comes before "not believing", and in fact that text TELLS us this very thing, since it says they are condemned "already".

Again the text tells us explicitly that the action of the present participle (disbelieving) is the cause of the action of the perfect indicative (condemning).

Your example is also problematic since it is a negation, rather than a positive proclamation.


Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar . . ..” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause.

Again, it's not a parallel example because the perfect tense is because of what God had said BEFORE the unbelieving.

Furthermore, with respect to 1 John 5:1, contextually the simple initial act of believing is not under consideration by John. John is talking about the ongoing life of faith as a believer. Obviously, the new birth precedes the ongoing life of faith.

You are making an artificial and arbitrary distinction between the "initial act of believing" and "the ongoing life of faith". There is no contextual reason for inserting this self-serving interpretation into the text.


The broader context of John’s writings indicate he would not teach that regeneration precedes faith and elsewhere teach that faith is a condition for life as he does in John 20:31. This precludes the possibility of regeneration preceding faith

This is an invalid argument, since you are rejecting 1 John 5:1 based on your misinterpretation of John 20:31.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You continue to conflate "regeneration" with "eternal life".
As long as you do that, your conclusions will continue to be false.

You are confused I said life. Eternal is the duration of the life


REGENERATION


§ 1. Usage of the Word

The subjective change wrought in the soul by the grace of God, is variously designated in Scripture. It is called a new birth, a resurrection, a new life, a new creature,

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 3 (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 3.

VI. Regeneration and Effectual Calling
A. The Scriptural Terms for Regeneration and Their Implications
1. THE TERMS THAT COME INTO CONSIDERATION. The Greek word for “regeneration” (palingenesia) is found only in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5; and only in the last named passage does it refer to the beginning of the new life in the individual Christian. The idea of this beginning is more commonly expressed by the verb gennao (with anothen in John 3:3), or its compositum anagennao. These words mean either to beget, to beget again, or to bear or give birth,
Berkhof's Systematic Theology

3824 παλιγγενεσία, παλινγενεσία [paliggenesia /pal·ing·ghen·es·ee·ah/] n f. From 3825 and 1078; TDNT 1:686; TDNTA 117; GK 4098 and 4100; Two occurrences; AV translates as “regeneration” twice. 1 new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration. 1A hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better.

Two Calvinist and a lexicon point to this truth

Here is another

Regeneration
What does it mean to be born again?
EXPLANATION AND SCRIPTURAL BASIS
We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8).
Gruden's systematic Theology

as right off the bat your claims are refuted by

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

and

Acts 11:18 —KJV
“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”

and there are many others but I will give just one more

Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows: “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple: “Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

end pt1
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Your non-Calvinist (ie. biased) commentator runs to John, when far better parallels are found in the immediate context:

1John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of him" doesn't come before "practicing righteousness" (ie. works-righteousness)?

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of God" doesn't come before "ceasing the practice of sinning" (ie. works-righteousness)?

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Are you seriously going to argue that being "born of God" doesn't come before "loves" (since we love, BECAUSE He first loved us)?



None of that helps you

Your premise is faulty

As I stated the verses speak of characteristics of one born of God as do all the verses you mention

Those born again live a life of Faith

Your verse does not address how one is born of God

These do and show faith and repentance are required before one receives life

Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…” “…get a new heart and a new spirit.” Verse 32 makes it even more simple: “Repent and…” “…live!” Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “Repentance unto…” “…life” The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).

John 5:40 “yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “Come to me…” (through faith) “…to have life.” John 6:53 “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “Unless you eat…drink” (by faith) “…you have not life in you.”

John 6:57 “so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “the one who feeds on me…” (by faith) “…will live”

John 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “these are written…” (scriptures) “…that you may believe…” “…by believing you may have life…” Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.

Acts 15:9 “He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.” The order clearly laid out is as follows
“He purified their hearts…” “…by faith.” It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.

John 1:12-13 “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe. The order clearly laid out is as follows: “…all who did receive him…who believed…” “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…” You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).

Galatians 3:26 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “You are all sons of God…” “…through faith in Christ…” Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.

Ephesians 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “when you heard the message of truth…when you believed “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”

Galatians 3:2, 5 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “…received the Spirit…” “…by believing what you heard…”

Colossians 2:12 “…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “…baptism, in which you were also raised…” “…through your faith…”

James 1:18 “He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.” The order clearly laid out is as follows: “…give us brith…” “…through the word of truth…” Calvinists teach the word of truth will certainly be rejected by the unregenerate, thus how can the apostle say that the word may be the means of new birth? Birth must precede the word if Calvinism is true, and that is not what the text clearly indicates.

The Philippian jailer inquired, “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30). If Paul was Calvinistic he should have replied, “You can do nothing to be saved. You were born corpse-like dead in your sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God makes you alive then you will be convinced to believe our gospel.” But Paul does not hesitate to simply say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Believe so as to have new life. Repent so as to live! That is the gospel appeal sent for all to hear it and respond.
LCF
 

TomFL

Well-known member
.
TomFL said:
This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples.

John 3:18 furnishes another clear example: 'but whoever does not believe [present substantival participle] has been condemned [perfect Indicative] already because he has not believed [perfect indicative] in the name of the one and only son of God' .

You are arbitrarily interpreting this in a non-Calvinist way.
It is perfectly reasonable to understand that the one being "condemned" comes before "not believing", and in fact that text TELLS us this very thing, since it says they are condemned "already".

In 1Jn 5:1 you tried to make regeneration the cause of faith

condemnation is not the cause of not believing

TomFL said:
Again the text tells us explicitly that the action of the present participle (disbelieving) is the cause of the action of the perfect indicative (condemning).

Your example is also problematic since it is a negation, rather than a positive proclamation.

So what we are dealing with causes ?
TomFL said:
Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar . . ..” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause.

Again, it's not a parallel example because the perfect tense is because of what God had said BEFORE the unbelieving.

?????

It is the not believing that results in making God a liar it is perfect example

The grammar matches 1Jn 5:1 perfectly

The perfect tense does not establish temporal order

As I told you 1Jn is not speaking of the initial act of faith but an ongoing characteristic of those born of God as seen in your other verses

David Allen notes

contextually the simple initial act of believing is not under consideration by John. John is talking about the ongoing life of faith as a believer. Obviously, the new birth precedes the ongoing life of faith. But that is something altogether different from saying the new birth precedes the initial act of faith.

And it is easy to know this because you must contradict many verses previously posted to arrive at your conclusion

and contradiction is always a sign of error
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
You ignored the point

The born again already have life

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

this passage puts belief before life
Yes they have it but they begin to live it A baby has life in the womb but it' doesn't begin living until brought forth
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I just told you. Yes and no. The baby has life which it doesn't consciously begin to live until actual physical birth after its smacked on the rump.
Yes and No

As I stated previously

You ignored the point

The born again already have life

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

this passage puts belief before life
 
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