Does Revelation refer to two battles, or does it narrate one in different chapters?

rakovsky

Active member
Revelation 16 refers to the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 20 talks about Magog gathering for battle and then being devoured by fire:
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Offhand, I don't know if these chapters narrate two battles or just narrate one battle repeatedly.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Revelation 16 refers to the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 20 talks about Magog gathering for battle and then being devoured by fire:

Offhand, I don't know if these chapters narrate two battles or just narrate one battle repeatedly.
Armageddon is what takes place at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns and destroys/slaughters all the enemies surrounding Israel. Satan gets locked up at this point for 1000 years.

Magog is what takes place at the very end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed and allowed to organize all the malcontents who hate the Lord. Satan at this point will be shown his new permanent home, where he will never again have to pay a heating bill.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Armageddon is what takes place at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns and destroys/slaughters all the enemies surrounding Israel. Satan gets locked up at this point for 1000 years.

Magog is what takes place at the very end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed and allowed to organize all the malcontents who hate the Lord. Satan at this point will be shown his new permanent home, where he will never again have to pay a heating bill.
It sounds like you are saying that there are two battles in total.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
It sounds like you are saying that there are two battles in total.

Two entirely different battles. About a thousand years apart.

My pastor taught Revelation expertly from the Greek text. He also taught history on a university level... And, after all that? He was down to earth.

If interested? (for no money asked)... you can call this ministry and ask for the Revelation messages covering these two battles. They will be most helpful.

r.b. thieme jr bible minsitries
 

rakovsky

Active member
Two entirely different battles. About a thousand years apart.

My pastor taught Revelation expertly from the Greek text. He also taught history on a university level... And, after all that? He was down to earth.

If interested? (for no money asked)... you can call this ministry and ask for the Revelation messages covering these two battles. They will be most helpful.

r.b. thieme jr bible minsitries
That is nice of you to suggest that.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
That is nice of you to suggest that.
These messages might cause you to pull off the shelf your reference books. It is not light learning. It is a real study. Pastors ordered from him for reference material. Its nothing like you heard before.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings rakovsky,
Offhand, I don't know if these chapters narrate two battles or just narrate one battle repeatedly.
I agree with GeneZ that the Battle of Armageddon mentioned in Revelation 16 is shortly before the beginning of the 1000 year Kingdom of God of God upon the earth and Revelation 20 at the end of the 1000 years. I also consider many of the OT prophecies are in parallel with Revelation 16, such as Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, 11:40-45, Ezekiel 38, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14. Each of these give additional detail and it would be interesting to combine all of these and determine to some extent the sequence.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

rakovsky

Active member
Each of these give additional detail and it would be interesting to combine all of these and determine to some extent the sequence.

Kind regards
Trevor
I think that Revelation does include stories/prophecies that appear in Daniel and Ezekiel. Thanks for writing in the thread.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I think that Revelation does include stories/prophecies that appear in Daniel and Ezekiel. Thanks for writing in the thread.

Revelation for the most part is the return to the promises to Israel!

Israel was promised the Messiah who would rule over them as a nation. The Church? Our Home is Heaven... not the earth. And, we have been called to rule with Him! The Chosen Royal Family of God!


Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ."
Philippians 3:19-20

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions:
if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also." (that place - Heaven)
John 14:1-3


Our home (the Church) is heaven! The Jews were promised the new world on the new earth. We should learn not to confuse the two eternal destinies for the chosen peoples of God. God did not just choose the Jews. God did not just chose the Church. Both are chosen people!

Much of Revelation is OT prophesy of Judaism oriented, but not all.

grace and peace.....
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again rakovsky and GeneZ,
I think that Revelation does include stories/prophecies that appear in Daniel and Ezekiel.
Yes I agree. I consider that they are all part of the overall picture.

Our home (the Church) is heaven! The Jews were promised the new world on the new earth. We should learn not to confuse the two eternal destinies for the chosen peoples of God. God did not just choose the Jews.
I do not subscribe to the idea of going to heaven at death or at the return of Jesus.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions:
if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also." (that place - Heaven)
John 14:1-3
I suggest that this is talking about the spiritual House or Temple, not heaven, and Jesus was going to be crucified to prepare a place for us, and then he was going to heaven and then return and we will be fully united with him then on earth when he returns.

I believe that we die and remain in the dust until the resurrection, and then the faithful will rule with Christ on the earth, and Jesus will be sitting upon the Throne of David as King-Priest in the Temple at Jerusalem.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The Apostles for example will rule over converted natural Israel.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Gentile nations will be subjected and will be learning God’s ways when Jesus sits upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem. The following is after the Battle of Armageddon.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Since "Eschatiology" is nothing more that rank speculation, I'm sure that "Theologians" can "PROVE" either version conclusively.
Bad theologians will try that. Not all are. It only seems that way because we wrestle not against flesh and blood.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Thanks everyone for your feedback!

If you ever order those messages I told you about? I believe you will have no more doubt.

Hal Lindsey wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth." When the Israeli prime minister Ben Gurion died they found in his study a well worn copy of this book. He studied it many times. It was a very well worn copy.

Hal Lindsey was a member of the congregation of that Pastor who's lessons I showed you. At that time the pastor (R.B. Thieme) was writing his thesis for his doctorate, and he allowed Hal to look over his notes. After that study by Hal, we got to see the book, "The Late Great Planet Earth," being published. Became a NYT best seller around the world.

Though the pastor did not like and disagreed with some of Hal's own conclusions (which he openly criticized) the battle outline in the book was excellent. The pastor was retired Military, besides being a Hebrew and Greek scholar.


  • In writing The Late Great Planet Earth, I had the Jews constantly in mind. I prayerfully and deliberately sought to present my prophetic case in such a way that it would especially appeal to them. It has been published in more than fifty foreign editions and has been instrumental all around the world in bringing tens of thousands of Jews to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. I run into them everywhere. They continue to write to me from virtually every part of the world. The first Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion, was reading it shortly before he died. Since everything in his room has been kept the way it was before he died, a copy of The Late Great Planet Earth remains on his desk. A friend of mine who is one of Israel's top military commanders passed out hundreds of copies of the Hebrew translation to the Israeli Defense forces, even though he personally hasn't as yet believed in Jesus as the Messiah. http://stephensizer.com/articles/hallindsey.htm

grace and peace......
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again GeneZ,
Hal Lindsey wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth."
Browsing a few references as to what Hal Lindsey taught, I found that among his many speculations was the idea that the Third temple will be rebuilt and become the seat of the Antichrist. This is similar to the RCC concept which was invented to deflect the claim that the Papacy was the Antichrist. I believe that when Jesus returns he will establish Jerusalem as His Throne, the Throne of David and commence building the Temple. I anticipate that the RCC and such teachers as Hal Lindsey will oppose Christ at that time. Jesus will fulfil Isaiah 2:1-4, but some Catholics and Protestants will oppose Christ and the early stages of the restoration of the Temple by Christ. Hal Lindsey also believed in the Rapture, and when they are not taken to heaven then this may reinforce their view of the Antichrist

Kind regards
Trevor
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Greetings again GeneZ,

Browsing a few references as to what Hal Lindsey taught, I found that among his many speculations was the idea that the Third temple will be rebuilt and become the seat of the Antichrist. This is similar to the RCC concept which was invented to deflect the claim that the Papacy was the Antichrist. I believe that when Jesus returns he will establish Jerusalem as His Throne, the Throne of David and commence building the Temple. I anticipate that the RCC and such teachers as Hal Lindsey will oppose Christ at that time. Jesus will fulfil Isaiah 2:1-4, but some Catholics and Protestants will oppose Christ and the early stages of the restoration of the Temple by Christ. Hal Lindsey also believed in the Rapture, and when they are not taken to heaven then this may reinforce their view of the Antichrist

Kind regards
Trevor
I do not the RCC... But, they are not wrong about everything.

Besides... the Thesis was Hal got his info from about the war maneuvers, not some of the things Hal Lindsey proposed. Like I said earlier, the pastor who was writing his thesis said he did not agree with all the conclusions presented by Hal.

Yet, what was mentioned about the military maneuvers -strategy and and tactics- was deemed important by the Israeli military, and had the book translated even into Hebrew and distributed.

That should tell you something right there. Problem is.. Most pastors can not expound military thinking found in the Bible with the needed clarity and accuracy to show the two distinctly different battles fought in Revelation 16 and 20.

Here is the Pastor who Hal Lindsey learned from... as well as Chuck Swindoll... And, also Billy Graham asked for him to privately mentor him, but found he needed to turn it down with his very busy teaching ministry in his church. Here: https://rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3
 

rakovsky

Active member
I don't want to make a specific critique of anything in the thread, but as a note, I want to say that I am generally reluctant to equate the Book of Revelation with modern figures because it feels very arbitrary. For example, someone who focused on modern world politics and the dog whistling of the modern mass corporate media and who take s a very negative view of Saddam Hussein could equate Saddam Hussein with the Antichrist. But I think that someone who did that would be reading their own modern perceptions into the ancient text.

Or to give an example, I think that Nero and Domitian were the kinds of people whom the author of Revelation was thinking of as the beast. Maybe the author was thinking of a specific ancient emperor, or maybe the author was laying out an archetype that can apply to many people, or maybe he was doing both. But to give another example, my barber told me once that people thought that Gorbachev was the antiChrist because he has a funny red birthmark on his head. But it turned out that Gorbachev was a pro-democratic figure after all, not an Antichrist. So I am reluctant to draw parallels with modern figures and politics and armies, etc. because it feels presumptuous and arbitrary. Maybe the author did mean a certain evil figure who is yet to come even in our own time who God and prophets know about specifically. Nonetheless, I am reluctant on the issue of making specific identifications.

Peace - Shalom
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings again GeneZ,
Here is the Pastor who Hal Lindsey learned from...
I had a brief browse at some of the material you referenced from RB Thieme. I would have to listen or read his full exposition to make a proper assessment, but there is a lot of material in general that I can agree with, but definitely many items that I disagree with, but these are other subjects.

Even looking at his diagrams on the Battle of Armageddon, in the most detailed he has Kings of the East, King of the South, King of the North and Western Alliance and some explanations. Looking at some of this detail I would question some aspects. I am not sure if he expounds elsewhere the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet who are mentioned before the Battle of Armageddon and seem to be directly involved, and how the Kings of the East and the Drying up of the Euphrates is connected to this overall picture in Revelation 16:12-16.

Similarly in his diagram on the Order of the Resurrections he has The Resurrection of the Church equated with the Rapture of the Church and then later he has Resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs and Old Testament Believers and he equates this with the Second Advent of Christ. I believe in only One Resurrection at the Return of Christ, no rapture.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Greetings again GeneZ,

I had a brief browse at some of the material you referenced from RB Thieme. I would have to listen or read his full exposition to make a proper assessment, but there is a lot of material in general that I can agree with, but definitely many items that I disagree with, but these are other subjects.

Even looking at his diagrams on the Battle of Armageddon, in the most detailed he has Kings of the East, King of the South, King of the North and Western Alliance and some explanations. Looking at some of this detail I would question some aspects. I am not sure if he expounds elsewhere the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet who are mentioned before the Battle of Armageddon and seem to be directly involved, and how the Kings of the East and the Drying up of the Euphrates is connected to this overall picture in Revelation 16:12-16.

Similarly in his diagram on the Order of the Resurrections he has The Resurrection of the Church equated with the Rapture of the Church and then later he has Resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs and Old Testament Believers and he equates this with the Second Advent of Christ. I believe in only One Resurrection at the Return of Christ, no rapture.

Kind regards
Trevor
Let anyone who wants to listen for themself.
 
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