water only for JOHN
Member
Would it be fair to say John the Baptist preached the gospel in Matthew 3:11
Does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..save ?
- Thread starter water only for JOHN
- Start date
water only for JOHN
Member
My point is..
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..
WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.
What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.
DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..
WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.
What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.
DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
Thistle
Well-known member
[Please read this through to the end before responding, because until you do, you won't know where you will want to put your comments]
I'm really glad I asked. Can we agree that on at least one occasion John baptized with the Holy Spirit [John 1:9-11]? At this point I'll stop and define what we mean here by "baptized with the Holy Spirit" [BHS]. We are seeing Holy Spirit power coming over the top, immersing [if you will] that individual with visible power. As you can see from my words immersing with power that baptism is being used literally in that there is a ceremony going on and analogically some one is being immersed in Holy Spirit power. The bible only records three examples of this. One is this one with Jesus, the next is in Acts 2:1-4 three and one half years later, and the last is at the house of Cornelius three and one half years later again. These are three history dividing events that seem to match up with Daniel 9:27. It is my view that this marks Daniel's final week of years ushering in the millennial reign of Christ. The thing to notice that these three instances of BHS in this analogical sense are completely related to God's redemptive plan, but they are not salvific, but rather demonstrative. They are God's stamp of official demarcation.
By now you are probably saying, wait a minute. Christians get the Holy Spirit, right? That does have to do with the word baptism, right? Yes, it does. This fact that Christians receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in baptism, I'm going to call Spirit Baptism [SB] for the totally pragmatic purpose of not confusing it with what I just said above. The bible has a lot to say about this [1 Corinthians 12:13; Titus 3:5; John 3:5; Acts 2:38-39; etc]. So in Acts 2:1-4 we have BHS and in verses 38-41 we have SB. BHS is analogical language for Holy Spirit power that is visible to an observer, so it need not involve water as we see in verses 1-4. SB on the other hand happens in the baptism ceremony, thus water is a central element of the ceremony. Again the analogical BHS is not salvific, but the literal SB is. This same pattern where the analogical BHS precedes the literal SB also plays out in Acts 10 in identical fashion.
One more note. What do I mean buy analogical and literal? As I'm using the terms here literal baptism is the ceremony of immersing someone in water. Analogical here is using the picture of that ceremony to elucidate this overwhelming Holy Spirit power. Since we don't have any literal water in our minds eye, all we can have is the picture of water in our minds eye. So I suppose you could say an analogy is literally dry but conceptually wet.
So now we can answer your question:
"DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?"
BHS does not save, although it's closely related to redemption. SB does save.
The next logical question:
What is Matthew 3:11 talking about BHS or SB?
My suspicion is that it is a double entendre and it's actually talking about both. You might say I'm cheating here because generally in hermeneutics you have to decide. I concede that general point but I think in this instance we really do have a double entendre.
water only for JOHN
Member
The big question is ...
why did John the Baptist use water to baptize ?
I believe the answer starts with....
John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, THE WORLD DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM.
Here in JOHN 1:31-34 John the Baptist answered the question...
I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a DOVE and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME , ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who WILL BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT .’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One
So what I understand is John the Baptist was the one to identify the Son of God and have a testimony.
Now John the Baptist I believe immersed people in water looking for a" DOVE" and that was the baptism of repentance because the people being immersed in water were repenting of their sins but when Jesus was baptized the heavens opened up and the DOVE came down, john fulfilled his testimony by seeing the DOVE knowing Jesus was the Son of God.
With that said.. I believe today we have a misunderstanding of water baptism because of what John the Baptist preached, for I baptized with water specifying ONLY him telling people that the one coming after him will baptized in the Holy Spirit which is the baptism that saves...
The fact is John the Baptist water baptism had nothing to do what today's believers baptism Today a problem people conflating water baptism with John the baptists.
To make it short.. I believe Paul was chosen a go to the gentiles because Peter in Acts 10:48 should have never baptized the gentiles in water because they had already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and saved. in Galatians 2:14 Paul opposes Peter for forcing gentiles to follow old Jewish customs...
why did John the Baptist use water to baptize ?
I believe the answer starts with....
John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, THE WORLD DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM.
Here in JOHN 1:31-34 John the Baptist answered the question...
I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a DOVE and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME , ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who WILL BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT .’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One
So what I understand is John the Baptist was the one to identify the Son of God and have a testimony.
Now John the Baptist I believe immersed people in water looking for a" DOVE" and that was the baptism of repentance because the people being immersed in water were repenting of their sins but when Jesus was baptized the heavens opened up and the DOVE came down, john fulfilled his testimony by seeing the DOVE knowing Jesus was the Son of God.
With that said.. I believe today we have a misunderstanding of water baptism because of what John the Baptist preached, for I baptized with water specifying ONLY him telling people that the one coming after him will baptized in the Holy Spirit which is the baptism that saves...
The fact is John the Baptist water baptism had nothing to do what today's believers baptism Today a problem people conflating water baptism with John the baptists.
To make it short.. I believe Paul was chosen a go to the gentiles because Peter in Acts 10:48 should have never baptized the gentiles in water because they had already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and saved. in Galatians 2:14 Paul opposes Peter for forcing gentiles to follow old Jewish customs...
Thistle
Well-known member
The same reason God used water to make the Atlantic Ocean. Baptism like the Atlantic Ocean is comprised of water.
We need to take it for granted that the inspired writer of the New Testament knew Christian doctrine, because if they don't we can't.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Death and resurrection go together. We must die together with him if we want to be raised up to new life together with him.
Water baptism is how we put our trust in him by dying with him.
Having died with him we receive his resurrection life. Spirit baptism is how we have that new life in him.
Cynthia
Active member
He was the forerunner and witness to the Messiah. He could not have preached the gospel prior to Jesus preaching it. And blessed John was beheaded before he heard Jesus preach.
Thistle
Well-known member
What do you make of John 3:22-24?
Thistle
Well-known member
If Jesus were not preaching what did his converts believe they were being baptized into?
Thistle
Well-known member
Fair enough.
Cynthia
Active member
Thistle
Well-known member
There is only one Christian baptism [Ephesians 4:5].
Christian baptism is a ceremony performed in water [Acts 8:36-39].
Holy Spirit baptism is a real miracle, but it's only a baptism in the analogical sense of the word. Therefore as Paul said there is only one literal Christian Baptism [Ephesians 4:5].
Thistle
Well-known member
I think I misunderstood your answer here. I believe you are saying we are not told what Jesus was teaching. I thought you were saying we are not told whether Jesus and John's paths crossed on this occasion exactly.
Assuming you are saying we are not told what Jesus was preaching, you don't think we can draw some kind of inference from his conversation with Nicodemus that ended in verse 21? I think that is why these passages run together, personally.
Cynthia
Active member
In my post #10, I stated that John and Jesus were both baptizing in the same area, together. In 3.22, it states, after this (after his discourse with Nic). so they dont run together. we are told John was baptising for repentance in chapter 1. that is all we are told. chapter 4 states Jesus did nt baptize but his disciples did.
the beauty of having 4 gospel accounts is so we can have a broader perspective, 4 views.
Last edited:
Cynthia
Active member
Johns baptism (by immersion) was for repentance. He never preached death-burial-resurrection of Jesus, so he never preached the gospel. He prepared the hearts of the people to receive Christ and his gospel.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit by Christ is for those who believe in death-burial-resurrection of Christ, the gospel msg. This is the true one baptism spoken of by Paul. Water immersion is symbolic of our belief in the gospel, and that we also die with him and are raised in his resurrection. it is also an outward display of our obedience
Thistle
Well-known member
Verse 21 is the end of the dialogue with Nicodemus, verse 22 is the next thing they did which is connected with the words "After these things." Night time meetings are the exception, not the rule.
Mark 1:4 givens us a bit more information, that John was preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, as you may remember.
That parenthetical note in verse 2 does not negate the grammar and syntax of verse one. Namely, "the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John." Did the Lord know this to be true, or did the Lord know this to be false? Those who were baptized by Jesus disciples were baptized under the Lords authority and direction.
Indeed. I think Mark 1:4 helps.