Does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..save ?

G. Duval

Member
My point is..
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..

WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.

What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.

DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
Holy Spirit descended on Christ Jesus similar to dove. Christ Jesus HAD Spirit while John just facilitated (technically , mechanically) for event to occur.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
My point is..
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..

WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.

What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.

DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
If you order a Whopper with cheese do you expect it to have a hamburger patty on it? What's true for a Whopper is true for baptism. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is still baptism, and baptism is a ceremony performed in water.
 

Truther

Well-known member
My point is..
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..

WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.

What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.

DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
The baptism of the Holy Ghost keeps us. Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ first saves us.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
No these are substantive distinctions they have a direct impact on what the Bible says about the meaning and purpose of baptism.

If I'm not mistaken you're arguing that there are at least two different baptisms in a literal sense. I'm saying that Ephesians 4:5 says that there's only one literal baptism and that's a substantive difference.

I'm saying that Spirit baptism which is mentioned in the first Corinthians 12:13 is part and parcel of a liberal Christian baptism. Apart from literal Christian baptism there is no Spirit baptism. That having been said, "baptism of the Holy Spirit" like we see in Act 2:1 through four is a miracle of the Holy Spirit, but the word baptism is being used in a analogical sense, so it is not a literal baptism, it is analogical baptism. And since analogies are by definition endless, that is to say there's absolutely no limit on the number of different things a person could be analogically baptized in, that would not mean that there is more than one literal Christian baptism ( Ephesians 4:5 ).

So you say…
I love your posts Thistle.

Here are a couple of short videos to explain this!


 

Thistle

Well-known member
I love your posts Thistle.

Here are a couple of short videos to explain this!

It's very well produced video. But it fails to state the obvious fact that both John 3:5 and Titus 3:16 are talking about literal baptism which is a ceremony which is performed in water. But for that omission, I don't object to anything that this video says.
This video is also very well produced. It makes the argument, it makes a very succinctly, and it manages to do it in a very short amount of time. The problem I have with it is that it gets everything kind of backwards. Which means addressing it is much easier to do by starting at the end and working to the beginning. The conclusion of the entire video says that "baptism is a work." That's actually not true in the relevant sense.

In the biblical discussion of soteriology "work" is used two ways, and in any particular text it means one thing, or the other. The way Paul uses the word works in Ephesians 2:8–10, and in fact the vast majority of the time that that Paul uses the word "work," he has a tendency to use it this way, he means all those things that we're obligated to do because God is our creator and our ruler and he's instructed us to do them because they are in accordance with his attribute of holiness. What Paul does not mean by "work" in this context is just anything you happen to do. Baptism is not a "work," in this sense of the word, in the biblical discussion about salvation.

The other definition of "work" in the discussion of soteriology is where Jesus uses the term in John 6:27-30 with respect to a gospel command he is giving the crowd believe on him for salvation. You might notice that I've used a particular expression here " gospel command." You may be asking yourself "what in the heck does that mean?" There's a lot of different ways that you can look at salvation but one is where we positively respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here in John 6 Jesus says you respond by "believing in on him whom he has sent." Jesus talking about himself, revealing himself, is proclaiming the gospel, and notice the gospel includes an instruction on how you are to except it. As we go through the book of Acts we always see that the presentation of the gospel is accompanied by a specific instruction on how to except it. As you notice this is a completely different definition of the word "work." In this case anything that you do is a "work" including believing, which is to say faith.

Just so you don't think I made that up, a gospel command is anything that acts as a dividing line between the saved in the lost on the ground of obedience. In Acts 6:7 a gospel command is called "obedience to the faith," in Romans 10:16 it's called "have obey the good news," in second Thessalonians 1:8 it's called "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus," In first Peter 4:17 it's called "those who do not obey the Gospel of God."

I would encourage you to look at the surrounding context of each of these passages, and satisfy yourself that in each case the command acts as a dividing line between people who are saved on one side [the obedient], and people who are lost on the other [the disobedient]. So there is such a thing as "gospel commands" and unless we obey them, we cannot be saved, generally speaking. We can drill down into that if you want, but I'm just stating the general rule.

So getting back to the video, the conclusion that "baptism is a work" is true in one sense, but it's false in another. If you are being baptized, notice that's passive, it's a work in the sense that is obedience to command, a gospel command. But that's not really relevant because the video seeks to communicate the baptism is a work in the sense of trying to earn your way into heaven with "acts of righteousness." That's how Paul uses it in Ephesians 2 and elsewhere. Baptism is not a "work" in that sense. So the first thing that you need to do is to state clearly in what sense's baptism a "work" and in what sense baptism is not a "work." Until you do that, you have an argument that turns entirely on language confusion.

This is the crux of my objection, but since this is getting lengthy, if you want me to address any other element of the video, I'd be happy to do that, but I really object to most of what is presented and there are excellent arguments that it really leaves the wrong impression all the way through. But I think this post is a good conversation starter, if you're interested, and if not I'll just leave it at that.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
It's very well produced video. But it fails to state the obvious fact that both John 3:5 and Titus 3:16 are talking about literal baptism which is a ceremony which is performed in water. But for that omission, I don't object to anything that this video says.

This video is also very well produced. It makes the argument, it makes a very succinctly, and it manages to do it in a very short amount of time. The problem I have with it is that it gets everything kind of backwards. Which means addressing it is much easier to do by starting at the end and working to the beginning. The conclusion of the entire video says that "baptism is a work." That's actually not true in the relevant sense.

In the biblical discussion of soteriology "work" is used two ways, and in any particular text it means one thing, or the other. The way Paul uses the word works in Ephesians 2:8–10, and in fact the vast majority of the time that that Paul uses the word "work," he has a tendency to use it this way, he means all those things that we're obligated to do because God is our creator and our ruler and he's instructed us to do them because they are in accordance with his attribute of holiness. What Paul does not mean by "work" in this context is just anything you happen to do. Baptism is not a "work," in this sense of the word, in the biblical discussion about salvation.

The other definition of "work" in the discussion of soteriology is where Jesus uses the term in John 6:27-30 with respect to a gospel command he is giving the crowd believe on him for salvation. You might notice that I've used a particular expression here " gospel command." You may be asking yourself "what in the heck does that mean?" There's a lot of different ways that you can look at salvation but one is where we positively respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here in John 6 Jesus says you respond by "believing in on him whom he has sent." Jesus talking about himself, revealing himself, is proclaiming the gospel, and notice the gospel includes an instruction on how you are to except it. As we go through the book of Acts we always see that the presentation of the gospel is accompanied by a specific instruction on how to except it. As you notice this is a completely different definition of the word "work." In this case anything that you do is a "work" including believing, which is to say faith.

Just so you don't think I made that up, a gospel command is anything that acts as a dividing line between the saved in the lost on the ground of obedience. In Acts 6:7 a gospel command is called "obedience to the faith," in Romans 10:16 it's called "have obey the good news," in second Thessalonians 1:8 it's called "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus," In first Peter 4:17 it's called "those who do not obey the Gospel of God."

I would encourage you to look at the surrounding context of each of these passages, and satisfy yourself that in each case the command acts as a dividing line between people who are saved on one side [the obedient], and people who are lost on the other [the disobedient]. So there is such a thing as "gospel commands" and unless we obey them, we cannot be saved, generally speaking. We can drill down into that if you want, but I'm just stating the general rule.

So getting back to the video, the conclusion that "baptism is a work" is true in one sense, but it's false in another. If you are being baptized, notice that's passive, it's a work in the sense that is obedience to command, a gospel command. But that's not really relevant because the video seeks to communicate the baptism is a work in the sense of trying to earn your way into heaven with "acts of righteousness." That's how Paul uses it in Ephesians 2 and elsewhere. Baptism is not a "work" in that sense. So the first thing that you need to do is to state clearly in what sense's baptism a "work" and in what sense baptism is not a "work." Until you do that, you have an argument that turns entirely on language confusion.

This is the crux of my objection, but since this is getting lengthy, if you want me to address any other element of the video, I'd be happy to do that, but I really object to most of what is presented and there are excellent arguments that it really leaves the wrong impression all the way through. But I think this post is a good conversation starter, if you're interested, and if not I'll just leave it at that.
I don't agree with you. However since you almost always 'spot on' and I respect you enormously, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
God Speed.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
My point is..
Mark 16:16 is a true statement and John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptized in the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..

WHY would Jesus say John only baptized in water after the Great commission ?Matthew 28:19 in ACTS 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

If Jesus in Matthew 28:19 was referring to water baptism Jesus would have said nothing about John baptizing with water in Acts 1:5 At that point everybody would have been baptizing in water.

What if Jesus was telling the 12 disciples in Matthew 28:19 ,what John the Baptist preached for JESUS would baptize in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit.

DOSE the baptism of the Holy Spirit save?
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a result of God saving you.....
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Peter was yet to outgrow thinking like a Jew in many ways when the church age first began.

After all... The disciples of Jesus began water baptizing more than the disciples of John.

It had become an accepted way of life that Peter who had no idea what was to change once the church age began.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more
disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."
John 4:1-2

Peter was told in Acts 1:5 that water was to be replaced by Spirit baptism. But, in all the excitement going on Peter forgot what was said. It was not until the 11th chapter of Acts that Peter finally REMEMBERD the Lord's words and realized what had taken place. That water baptism is to be replaced with Spirit baptism.


“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed

in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” Acts 11:15-17


Up until then, Peter had continued on water baptizing as he had done as a Jewish disciple under Jesus. But, no more water baptisms after. Peter finally caught on.

God allowed for water baptism in the early days of transitioning out from the Jewish age - into the Church age.

New spiritual ways that were revolutionary had to be introduced along with knowledge and understanding over time.
 
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Truther

Well-known member
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a result of God saving you.....
Yes, saved by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The Holy Ghost will either lead you to that event or keep you after that event.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..save?
For sure. Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
If you skip Acts 2:38 you are lost still.
Praytell how you would receive the gift of the Spirit otherwise.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead...and in Him you are restored. Col 2:8-10
This is the one who came by water [repentance toward God Acts 19:4] and by blood [believe in the Son Jesus Christ,
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38] And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8:16
 

Thistle

Well-known member
For sure. Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
In what sense? If you mean in the sense of 1 Corinthians 12:13 absolutely. If you mean in the sense of Acts 2:1–4 or 10:42-45 the answer is not in and of itself. These are somewhat different things referred to by very similar language. The former refers to literal baptism and the latter is a literal miracle, but only a baptism analogically.
 

Truther

Well-known member
For sure. Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Praytell how you would receive the gift of the Spirit otherwise.
Acts 2:38 is the Holy Ghost leading folks to the remission of sins VIA baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Ghost is fighting Christianity tooth and nail because they won't obey Acts 2:38.

.....Trying to lead mules to water but can't get them to drink it.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Believing in Jesus Christ is what saves us.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit if God wishing to righteously exploit our lives for being a part in making His enemies into His footstool.

For when we learn how to be filled with the Spirit .. and have grown in knowledge of truth .. the Spirit in us will empower us to become witnesses before both men and angels, by means of our transformed daily lives.


Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Romans 12:2

grace and peace ...........
 

Truther

Well-known member
Believing in Jesus Christ is what saves us.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit if God wishing to righteously exploit our lives for being a part in making His enemies into His footstool.

For when we learn how to be filled with the Spirit .. and have grown in knowledge of truth .. the Spirit in us will empower us to become witnesses before both men and angels, by means of our transformed daily lives.


Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Romans 12:2

grace and peace ...........
He that believes and skips baptism will not be saved
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk:
This is the one who came by water [repentance toward God Acts 19:4] and by blood [believe in the Son Jesus Christ,
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38] And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8:16
For sure. Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Praytell how you would receive the gift of the Spirit otherwise.
Acts 2:38 is the Holy Ghost leading folks to the remission of sins VIA baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Ghost is fighting Christianity tooth and nail because they won't obey Acts 2:38.

.....Trying to lead mules to water but can't get them to drink it.
BG VERSE OF THE DAY
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk said:
For sure. Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
In what sense? If you mean in the sense of 1 Corinthians 12:13 absolutely.
All day long.
Now that faith has come you are all sons and daughters of God...for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart
from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you
have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized
with the Holy Spirit
not many days from now.”
Acts 1:4-5

What was Jesus telling us in that passage? That John baptized with water, and I will do the same? No... It does not say that. though some here have closed their minds to the truth and insist that has to be the case.

John the baptizer was for OT believing. He baptized with water.
Jesus is Church age, and now baptizes all those who believe with the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist made sure to differentiate about there being two different baptisms.

One was water (OT believers) The new, are to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.


I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is
He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
John 1:33


Those who think we need to be water baptized today in the Church age fail to see what was being said by even John the Baptist.

A new spiritual way of life sprung upon the infant Church. Everything was revolutionarily new to them. For a while they kept doing things the old way (water baptizing). Then, some of them finally caught on, and realized that the old way was to be replaced with a new way. That is why we see water baptisms only in the very early days of the church age.

Its saddening to see how blind some want to make themselves to be. It reminds me of as a kid, the time I told little Gordy there was no Santa Claus. He cried and treated me like I was a horrible person. He cried and kept insisting that there is a Santa Claus...
 
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