Does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..save ?

Truther

Well-known member
What exactly do you imagine that I neglected, turning to God, or believing in the Son, the one He sent?
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3

The irony is that you two geniuses have no clue whether I was submerged in a water ritual back in the day.

So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].
But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
The irony is that you two geniuses have no clue whether I was submerged in a water ritual back in the day.

So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind 2 Tim 1:7-8]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10
 
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JonHawk

Well-known member
The irony is that you two geniuses have no clue whether I was submerged in a water ritual back in the day.

So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."

"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11


*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Truther said:
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind;
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 2 Tim 1:7-9]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10
 
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Thistle

Well-known member
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
@Truther I can honestly say that there are points that I agree and disagree about, with both you and @JonHawk. But what I think I can say without fear credible contradiction is that the direction that the conversation is trending is not likely to bear much fruit. Somewhere along the line in Christendom It was discovered that burning people at the stake is not a good way to change a brother 's mind. That's a lesson we should take care not to forget.
 

Truther

Well-known member
The irony is that you two geniuses have no clue whether I was submerged in a water ritual back in the day.

So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind 2 Tim 1:7-8]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10
It is not a water ritual. It is a sacred event that causes the remission of your sins. Also, the name of Jesus Christ is not a magical formula. It is used to have power to remit sins. The same remission that the apostles were given by Jesus. You can’t change the rules 2000 years later. That’s a no-no.
 

Truther

Well-known member
@Truther I can honestly say that there are points that I agree and disagree about, with both you and @JonHawk. But what I think I can say without fear credible contradiction is that the direction that the conversation is trending is not likely to bear much fruit. Somewhere along the line in Christendom It was discovered that burning people at the stake is not a good way to change a brother 's mind. That's a lesson we should take care not to forget.
Nobody is burning anybody at the stake… Lol. Also, it is better to debate a cause without settling it then to settle it without debating it. Don’t you agree?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."

"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11


*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Truther said:
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind;
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 2 Tim 1:7-9]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10
@Truther I can honestly say that there are points that I agree and disagree about, with both you and @JonHawk. But what I think I can say without fear credible contradiction is that the direction that the conversation is trending is not likely to bear much fruit. Somewhere along the line in Christendom It was discovered that burning people at the stake is not a good way to change a brother 's mind. That's a lesson we should take care not to forget.
That's precisely the point. Truther claims we bear fruit unto God when we receive the baptism of man, (John has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man,...the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me John 5:33-37)
whereas any sound minded believer knows that it was when faith came to fruition through the testimony of the Spirit.
Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5

Obedience by Faith
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...1 John 5:1-13
JonHawk said:
This is the one who came by water [repentance toward God Acts 19:4] and by blood [believe in the Son Jesus Christ,
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38] And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8:16
 
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Truther

Well-known member
So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."

"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11


*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind;
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 2 Tim 1:7-9]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10

That's precisely the point. Truther claims we bear fruit unto God when we receive the baptism of man, (John has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man,...the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me John 5:33-37)
whereas any sound minded believer knows that it was when faith came to fruition through the testimony of the Spirit.
Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5

Obedience by Faith
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...1 John 5:1-13
Water baptism is not a ritual. It is sacred. At the day of Pentecost, 3000 Jewish sinners asked Peter what to do about murdering Jesus. The answer from Peter still stands for all sinners today… Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…

Obviously, all of the new age modernists would’ve told them something quite different. I would rather obey Peter then obey new age modernists.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Truther said:
Look, the devils believe too, but the difference between us and them is they cannot be baptized.

Without being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are no more saved than the believing devils are.
Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind;
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 2 Tim 1:7-9]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10
Thistle said:
@Truther I can honestly say that there are points that I agree and disagree about, with both you and @JonHawk. But what I think I can say without fear credible contradiction is that the direction that the conversation is trending is not likely to bear much fruit. Somewhere along the line in Christendom It was discovered that burning people at the stake is not a good way to change a brother 's mind. That's a lesson we should take care not to forget.
That's precisely the point. Truther claims we bear fruit unto God when we receive the baptism of man, (John has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man,...the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me John 5:33-37)
whereas any sound minded believer knows that it was when faith came to fruition through the testimony of the Spirit.
Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5

Obedience by Faith
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...1 John 5:1-13
JonHawk said:
This is the one who came by water [repentance toward God Acts 19:4] and by blood [believe in the Son Jesus Christ,
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38] And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8:16
Water baptism is not a ritual. It is sacred. At the day of Pentecost, 3000 Jewish sinners asked Peter what to do about murdering Jesus.
Live as children of God. Do not conduct yourselves as you did in your ignorance [before you knew the requirements and transforming power of the good news regarding salvation]. 15 But be holy as He is holy, set apart, sanctified through Christ. 1 Peter 1:14-16
The answer from Peter still stands for all sinners today… Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…
Obviously, all of the new age modernists would’ve told them something quite different. I would rather obey Peter then obey new age modernists.
We prefer the term born again believers in Christ and as I previously mentioned, they were all in one accord.

We also have the prophetic word as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
The irony is that you two geniuses have no clue whether I was submerged in a water ritual back in the day.
Since I am responding to what you are writing, what was done to you back in the day is outside the scope of consideration and response.
So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:
That is a myopic view of the matter.
"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].
Is there a particular reason why you didn't post your source or sources?
But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.
If a person despised or denies Christ and baptism according to Acts 2, and the rest of Scripture, then that person is denying Christ since Acts 2 is the witness of one whose mind was opened by the risen Lord to understand the Scriptures, was an Apostle of the Christ, filled with the Spirit, and whose witness Luke was led to record.
Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Are you overlooking the "For" which begins verse 27? Paul is giving an explanation of verse 26. In other words, The Christian's faith is based upon his baptism into the crucified and risen Christ. It is an error to try and separate faith from it's content, from what the Lord has given men to believe.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Nobody is burning anybody at the stake… Lol.
So you picked up on my hyperbole. I used it analogically.
Also, it is better to debate a cause without settling it then to settle it without debating it. Don’t you agree?
It's better to debated in such a way that you may promote a willing ear in your interlocutor. In fact debate suggests a winner and a loser. And while it may be that you are in a debate, if you thought of it more in terms of trying to be a winsome persuader, you may gain the cooperation of the other party in a cooperative effort to determine the truth.
 
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JonHawk

Well-known member
Since I am responding to what you are writing, what was done to you back in the day is outside the scope of consideration and response.
What I'm repeatedly posting is that since the blessing of the inheritance of faith is granted by God through Christ, by grace through faith, one would most certainly be required to repent, turn to God.
That is a myopic view of the matter.
The shortsighted person is the one has forgotten that atonement is provided on the basis of faith .
Is there a particular reason why you didn't post your source or sources?
I've been repeatedly posting my source of salvation but your fixation is on your water ritual even though John pointed out that it was by water and by blood, (1 John 5:6) confirmed through Christ our High Priest:
He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. Heb 9:12

If a person despised or denies Christ and baptism according to Acts 2, and the rest of Scripture, then that person is denying Christ since Acts 2 is the witness of one whose mind was opened by the risen Lord to understand the Scriptures, was an Apostle of the Christ,
And He opened their minds so they could understand that blessing was granted through the death and resurrection of Christ: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, Luke 24:44-49
As John also clearly taught, Their spiritual state
I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. John 2:12
Are you overlooking the "For" which begins verse 27? Paul is giving an explanation of verse 26. In other words, The Christian's faith is based upon his baptism into the crucified and risen Christ. It is an error to try and separate faith from it's content, from what the Lord has given men to believe.
Which of course you have already denied ever saying that dying to the old nature and being made new is on the basis of your water ritual.
There is only one life giver. Paul made it very clear that it was on the basis of faith that he was united to Christ, "Now Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
 

Truther

Well-known member
So in your viewpoint the water ritual is not symbolic at all. Most would disagree with your opinion:

"Water Baptism — The baptisms John the Baptist did were symbolic of repentance from sin and a turning to God. That is, the repentant person turned from sin toward God. Biblical repentance is a turning away from sin to follow our holy God."
"Baptism has long been seen as a symbol of cleansing. Prior to the start of the church, the practice of baptism already existed in Jewish culture as an act of repentance and purification. John the Baptist baptized people as an act of repentance, preparing the Jewish people for the soon-coming Messiah" [purified by faith].

But He who is coming after me ....will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11

*Who is denying Christ? You're just pulling things out of thin air.

Now that this faith has come, ...
You are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Clearly it's based on faith, Having believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Do you have faith? Have it before God. [For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind;
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 2 Tim 1:7-9]

But whoever doubts is condemned if they partake, for whatever does not come from faith, [God's providence] is sin. Rom 14:22-23

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Cor 10

That's precisely the point. Truther claims we bear fruit unto God when we receive the baptism of man, (John has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man,...the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me John 5:33-37)
whereas any sound minded believer knows that it was when faith came to fruition through the testimony of the Spirit.
Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5

Obedience by Faith
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,...1 John 5:1-13


Live as children of God. Do not conduct yourselves as you did in your ignorance [before you knew the requirements and transforming power of the good news regarding salvation]. 15 But be holy as He is holy, set apart, sanctified through Christ. 1 Peter 1:14-16

We prefer the term born again believers in Christ and as I previously mentioned, they were all in one accord.

We also have the prophetic word as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19
If you were there at Pentecost among the 3000, and Peter commanded you to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, would you tell him that it was the baptism of man?
 

Truther

Well-known member
So you picked up on my hyperbole. I used it analogically.

It's better to debated in such a way that you may promote a willing ear in your interlocutor. In fact debate suggests a winner and a loser. And while it may be that you are in a debate, if you thought of it more in terms of trying to be a winsome persuader, you may gain the cooperation of the other party in a cooperative effort to determine the truth.
Ha, the truth hurts. Anybody that is stooped in tradition or false teachings is going to be infuriated when they hear the truth for the first time. It’s really on them, not the deliverer of the truth.

Naturally, the truth, the word of God, is bitter to the taste but sweet to the belly. It is bitter to the natural man but sweet to the inner man. It’s just up to the person to swallow it.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
All the believers were one in heart and mind...With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all. Acts 4:32:33, For it is God who is at work in you to fulfill his good purpose. Phil 2:13
If you were there at Pentecost among the 3000, and Peter commanded you to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, would you tell him that it was the baptism of man?
Your head's under water which is making it hard for you to hear. There is no rhyme nor reason to repent when you're of one accord, of one Spirit.

And after much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Your latest reply is a pretty consistent demonstration of diversion and avoidance in a manner that is similar to the method of scriptural misinterpretation demonstrated in your replies to me.
What I'm repeatedly posting is that since the blessing of the inheritance of faith is granted by God through Christ, by grace through faith, one would most certainly be required to repent, turn to God.
Diversion 1:
In reply to a previous diversion I wrote that what happened to you in days gone by is outside the scope of my replies. Now you post a another diversion since it has nothing to do with what happened to you in olden days or that such is outside the scope of consideration and response of my posts.

Regarding the substance of your reply above:
The reply above still avoids and denies the content of that faith. This is really simple to anyone who reads Acts 2 as if it is God's word and as if it is authoritative. For example, what was preached before the hearts of the mockers were pricked?

Peter preached that it was Jesus, the crucified and risen Lord, who received from the Father the gift of the Holy Spirit and subsequently poured it out on all flesh. That is a partial summary of the content of the faith or Christian revelation proclaimed at Pentecost.

Peter then told the mockers whose hearts were pricked to repent, something that they do, and be baptized in His name, something that is done to them, and they too would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Spirit. This forms the more complete summary of the content of the Christian faith preached on Pentecost.

Since it is a gift it is freely given through the act from God being done to the one being baptized. It is not a wage or merit earned by the one being baptized for having done this or that.
The shortsighted person is the one has forgotten that atonement is provided on the basis of faith .
Diversion 2:
It avoids or denies the error of your previous statement regarding who has a minority view with regard to baptism being a symbol.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Your claim is a fundamental denial of the Christian or Messianic revelation from Genesis through Revelation. The basis of the atonement, the foundation of the atonement, is the grace of God. The atonement, the grace of God, is only properly received through faith.
I've been repeatedly posting my source of salvation but your fixation is on your water ritual even though John pointed out that it was by water and by blood, (1 John 5:6) confirmed through Christ our High Priest:
He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. Heb 9:12
Diversion 3:
My question was regarding the source of the quotes you provided in your previous reply regarding baptism as a symbol. This latest reply has nothing to do with the source of those quotes.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
The one baptism from God which does now save you through the resurrection of Christ is not my, "water ritual." The passages you cite are again in lockstep with Acts 2.
And He opened their minds so they could understand that blessing was granted through the death and resurrection of Christ: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, Luke 24:44-49
There is no diversion here.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Place the events and statements of Luke 24 and Acts 2 in chronological order. When that is done then it is clear that those who understood Scripture proclaimed the forgiveness of sins in His name as be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins... Faithful Christians do likewise.
As John also clearly taught, Their spiritual state
I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. John 2:12
This passage is also in lockstep with Acts 2.
Which of course you have already denied ever saying that dying to the old nature and being made new is on the basis of your water ritual.
Diversion 4a:
This doesn't address Paul's explanatory use of "for" in the Gal 3 passage.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Once again, the one baptism from God which does now save you through the resurrection of Christ is not my, "water ritual."
There is only one life giver. Paul made it very clear that it was on the basis of faith that he was united to Christ, "Now Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Diversion 4b:
This too does not address Paul's use of the explanatory "for" in Galatians 3:27.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
If a person knows there is only one life giver but also denies that the one baptism from God does now save you through the resurrection of Christ then it is apparent that the person clearly misunderstands the gospel, the objective true good news of the one life giver. It is either that or the person doesn't know who is the one life giver.
 

Truther

Well-known member
All the believers were one in heart and mind...With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all. Acts 4:32:33, For it is God who is at work in you to fulfill his good purpose. Phil 2:13

Your head's under water which is making it hard for you to hear. There is no rhyme nor reason to repent when you're of one accord, of one Spirit.

And after much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15
You should not be quoting any scriptures in Acts(or Epistles) since you skipped Acts 2:38. You are not qualified. Your sins remain and you are trying to justify it by quoting obeyers to Acts 2:38.

We call that a spy where I come from.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
What I'm repeatedly posting is that since the blessing of the inheritance of faith is granted by God through Christ, by grace through faith, one would most certainly be required to repent, turn to God.
Your latest reply is a pretty consistent demonstration of diversion and avoidance in a manner that is similar to the method of scriptural misinterpretation demonstrated in your replies to me.

Diversion 1:
In reply to a previous diversion I wrote that what happened to you in days gone by is outside the scope of my replies. Now you post a another diversion since it has nothing to do with what happened to you in olden days or that such is outside the scope of consideration and response of my posts.
I don't dwell in the past.
Regarding the substance of your reply above:
The reply above still avoids and denies the content of that faith. This is really simple to anyone who reads Acts 2 as if it is God's word and as if it is authoritative. For example, what was preached before the hearts of the mockers were pricked?
Obviously mockers are lost as the day is long, in need of repentance toward God since they are devoid of the Spirit.
Peter preached that it was Jesus, the crucified and risen Lord, who received from the Father the gift of the Holy Spirit and subsequently poured it out on all flesh. That is a partial summary of the content of the faith or Christian revelation proclaimed at Pentecost.
Correct, the gift of the Spirit is granted to those who trust in God's promise through the Son.
"For the promise is to you and to your children, to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2
Peter then told the mockers whose hearts were pricked to repent, something that they do, and be baptized in His name, something that is done to them, and they too would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Spirit. This forms the more complete summary of the content of the Christian faith preached on Pentecost.

Since it is a gift it is freely given through the act from God being done to the one being baptized. It is not a wage or merit earned by the one being baptized for having done this or that. Diversion 2: It avoids or denies the error of your previous statement regarding who has a minority view with regard to baptism being a symbol.
You're quite inconsistent. You just proclaimed that the good news of salvation was granted through faith in the crucified and risen Lord, but now you're back peddling pretending that your ritual water is the means of receiving the free gift of life.
Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Your claim is a fundamental denial of the Christian or Messianic revelation from Genesis through Revelation. The basis of the atonement, the foundation of the atonement, is the grace of God. The atonement, the grace of God, is only properly received through faith.
You can't make up your mind whether to trust in Jesus or your lukewarm water.
Diversion 3:
My question was regarding the source of the quotes you provided in your previous reply regarding baptism as a symbol. This latest reply has nothing to do with the source of those quotes.
The purpose of the quotes was simply to identify where you were coming from. We now know that in your mindset it isn't symbolic, in other words it is not for the purpose of instructing one to "turn towards God" nor does it typify dying to the old nature and made anew, according to you, your lukewarm water is the actual means of receiving the gift of eternal life.
Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
The one baptism from God which does now save you through the resurrection of Christ is not my, "water ritual." The passages you cite are again in lockstep with Acts 2.
That's correct. The inheritance of faith is salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ.
There is no diversion here.

Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Place the events and statements of Luke 24 and Acts 2 in chronological order. When that is done then it is clear that those who understood Scripture proclaimed the forgiveness of sins in His name as be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins... Faithful Christians do likewise.
Again, you just finished saying that was not your bathwater, reconciliation is through the Spirit of Christ, Spirit baptism.
Regarding the substance of your reply in the section above:
Once again, the one baptism from God which does now save you through the resurrection of Christ is not my, "water ritual."

If a person knows there is only one life giver but also denies that the one baptism from God does now save you through the resurrection of Christ then it is apparent that the person clearly misunderstands the gospel, the objective true good news of the one life giver. It is either that or the person doesn't know who is the one life giver.
We finally agree on something. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
You should not be quoting any scriptures in Acts(or Epistles) since you skipped Acts 2:38. You are not qualified. Your sins remain and you are trying to justify it by quoting obeyers to Acts 2:38. We call that a spy where I come from.
You're entitled to your wrong opinion.
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
 
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Thistle

Well-known member
Ha, the truth hurts.
Making a statement like that requires you to state as a fact what you suspect to be the truth. That's not especially helpful. It undermines your credibility. The truth undoubtedly hurts many times many people, but you're applying it to a particular person in a particular circumstance.
Anybody that is stooped in tradition or false teachings is going to be infuriated when they hear the truth for the first time. It’s really on them, not the deliverer of the truth.
So you are a modern day Peter and this discussion is a modern day Pentecost sermon? I can except the analogy from your perspect about your role in the discussion, but when I turn my attention to @JonHawk the analogy totally breaks down. What was Peter's final argument? "This Jesus whom you have crucified God has made both Lord and Christ!" then Luke goes on to say "and when they heard this they were cut to the heart and they said to Peter and the rest of the disciples men and brethern what shall we do?" Those who "gladly received his words" just realized in that moment their guilt. @JonHawk understands all of this. Peter goes on in Acts 2:38 to give a "gospel command" to repent and be baptized and @JonHawk simply interprets that gospel command differently than you do. My interpretation is closer to yours than his, but I don't think you're advancing the cause.
Naturally, the truth, the word of God, is bitter to the taste but sweet to the belly. It is bitter to the natural man but sweet to the inner man. It’s just up to the person to swallow it.
That's an apt analogy, but I don't think it particularly is apt for this particular instance.

"but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect," - 1 Peter 3:15 ESV​
If you're convinced that Jon is lost and dying in his sins, then it seems to me you have an obligation to apply gentleness and respect in such a way as to provide him the light of the gospel in a manner consistent with its most likely reception.
 

Truther

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
What I'm repeatedly posting is that since the blessing of the inheritance of faith is granted by God through Christ, by grace through faith, one would most certainly be required to repent, turn to God.

I don't dwell in the past.

Obviously mockers are lost as the day is long, in need of repentance toward God since they are devoid of the Spirit.

Correct, the gift of the Spirit is granted to those who trust in God's promise through the Son.
"For the promise is to you and to your children, to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2

You're quite inconsistent. You just proclaimed that the good news of salvation was granted through faith in the crucified and risen Lord, but now you're back peddling pretending that your ritual water is the means of receiving the free gift of life.

You can't make up your mind whether to trust in Jesus or your lukewarm water.

The purpose of the quotes was simply to identify where you were coming from. We now know that in your mindset it isn't symbolic, in other words it is not for the purpose of instructing one to "turn towards God" nor does it typify dying to the old nature and made anew, according to you, your lukewarm water is the actual means of receiving the gift of eternal life.

That's correct. The inheritance of faith is salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ.

Again, you just finished saying that was not your bathwater, reconciliation is through the Spirit of Christ, Spirit baptism.

We finally agree on something. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

You're entitled to your wrong opinion.
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
If you do not believe Peter’s very first command on the day of Pentecost to sinners, your faith is in vain. Obey Acts 2:38.
 
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