Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

organgrinder

Well-known member
No, that is not what "after" means. And your church's own website agrees with us, under its Bible dictionary, under "grace."




This does NOT say "in SPITE of all we can do." It says "AFTER." And NOT without "total effort" on our part.
That is correct, Bonnie. The Mormons try to re-invent the definition of words. "After" is definitely different than "in spite of". After means in the time following an event. In spite of means without being affected by the particular factor mentioned. This is just another example of being uncomfortable with what has been taught and trying to make Mormonism appear to be doctrinally aligned with mainline Christianity.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That statement is incorrect in its interpretation of that scripture. It is true that we still need to keep the commandments of God to be saved; but the correct meaning of that scripture is the one I gave.
Sorry, but no it is not. The verse isn't written in Swahili or in some secret coded message. It is plain English and perfectly easy to understand. And your own church agrees with my interpretation. I guess you know more than those who wrote that dictionary....? More than Smith? Because he did NOT write, "After all, we are saved by grace." He wrote "it is by grace we are saved, AFTER all that WE CAN DO."
 

The Prophet

Active member
Oh, no it isn't. :rolleyes:

I'm not talking about the adoption. I'm talking about being the offspring of God. Get the right scriptures if you want to discuss it.
We are never literal offspring of God, neither the Book of Mormon or the Bible teaches that, we become his children by adoption only

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zerinus

Well-known member
That is correct, Bonnie. The Mormons try to re-invent the definition of words. "After" is definitely different than "in spite of". After means in the time following an event. In spite of means without being affected by the particular factor mentioned. This is just another example of being uncomfortable with what has been taught and trying to make Mormonism appear to be doctrinally aligned with mainline Christianity.
There is also the English idiom, "after all," which essentially means, "in spite of all".
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sorry, but no it is not. The verse isn't written in Swahili or in some secret coded message. It is plain English and perfectly easy to understand. And your own church agrees with my interpretation. I guess you know more than those who wrote that dictionary....? More than Smith? Because he did NOT write, "After all, we are saved by grace." He wrote "it is by grace we are saved, AFTER all that WE CAN DO."
See my previous post.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Paul told the unbelieving that they were God's "offspring" (Acts 17:28).
Offspring can be literal as well as figurative. Since the Bible clearly tells us how God created man, in Genesis, and Paul tells us we are the children of God by adoption, and John tells us in John 1 that when we believe in Jesus Christ, we have the "right to BECOME the children of God"....we can safely assume this "offspring" in Acts 17 is to be taken figuratively. Now, the Greeks may have thought they were the literal offspring of their God, Zeus....but that is not the case with us and the one true God of the Bible.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That is correct, Bonnie. The Mormons try to re-invent the definition of words. "After" is definitely different than "in spite of". After means in the time following an event. In spite of means without being affected by the particular factor mentioned. This is just another example of being uncomfortable with what has been taught and trying to make Mormonism appear to be doctrinally aligned with mainline Christianity.
Thanks, OG. I think it is patently obvious that the two have completely different meanings. One would need to deliberately refuse to see the truth NOT to realize that.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
There is also the English idiom, "after all," which essentially means, "in spite of all".
If it were an idiom, the phrase would have been superfluous. Obviously it was not an idiom. It meant exactly what we said it meant. You are really reaching and stretching trying to make that scripture say something it doesn't mean. Maybe you need to tell your church authorities they are wrong in posting the following on lds.org:

"Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)."

No idiom.
Total effort before grace can be given. Basic understanding of the English language and sentence structure. The sentence can also be written with the same words as follows: "After all we can do, it by grace that we are saved". It would mean the same thing. "That means works based salvation as your fellow TMB Brother of Jared has so eloquently and specifically told us (faith means works).

"Salvation comes through faith which is works." John 5:29. (from a BOJ post). Aside from totally not understanding the context of John 5:29 or other scriptures, BOJ is quite clear on a works based salvation and twisting and redefining scripture to say something it doesn't say.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
If it were an idiom, the phrase would have been superfluous. Obviously it was not an idiom. It meant exactly what we said it meant. You are really reaching and stretching trying to make that scripture say something it doesn't mean. Maybe you need to tell your church authorities they are wrong in posting the following on lds.org:

"Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)."

No idiom.
Total effort before grace can be given. Basic understanding of the English language and sentence structure. The sentence can also be written with the same words as follows: "After all we can do, it by grace that we are saved". It would mean the same thing. "That means works based salvation as your fellow TMB Brother of Jared has so eloquently and specifically told us (faith means works).

"Salvation comes through faith which is works." John 5:29. (from a BOJ post). Aside from totally not understanding the context of John 5:29 or other scriptures, BOJ is quite clear on a works based salvation and twisting and redefining scripture to say something it doesn't say.
IF the BoM had meant that we are saved "in spite of what we do" then it would have read, "After all, we are saved by grace." But that isn't what the BoM says, is it? NOR what lds.org dictionary says either.

This is another instance of a Mormon refusing to see what his/her own Scriptures and church leaders ACTUALLY WROTE.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
If it were an idiom, the phrase would have been superfluous. Obviously it was not an idiom. It meant exactly what we said it meant. You are really reaching and stretching trying to make that scripture say something it doesn't mean. Maybe you need to tell your church authorities they are wrong in posting the following on lds.org:

"Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)."
Question for the critics here:

What difference do you find between 2Nephi 25:23--and Matthew 10:22?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Offspring can be literal as well as figurative. Since the Bible clearly tells us how God created man, in Genesis, and Paul tells us we are the children of God by adoption, and John tells us in John 1 that when we believe in Jesus Christ, we have the "right to BECOME the children of God"....we can safely assume this "offspring" in Acts 17 is to be taken figuratively. Now, the Greeks may have thought they were the literal offspring of their God, Zeus....but that is not the case with us and the one true God of the Bible.
So--is this context literal--or figurative?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Since the Bible clearly tells us how God created man, in Genesis, and Paul tells us we are the children of God by adoption, and John tells us in John 1 that when we believe in Jesus Christ, we have the "right to BECOME the children of God"....we can safely assume this "offspring" in Acts 17 is to be taken figuratively.

Anyone who is adopted--always has a previous F(f)ather. Who was the previous F(f)ather of our spirits--before we are adopted?

Ephesians 4:4-6----King James Version
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
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