Great post, Theo! And good point--IF they believe that Romans 4:5 has been corrupted--then why not Ps. 82? Or Matthew 19? Or James 2:24? HOW do the Mormons know that those verses have not been "corrupted"?You know, it's funny... This poster accuses the scribes of intentionally changing Scripture, but here he goes, "It says God justifies the ungodly. I don't believe it, so I'm going to change it to something I believe instead." Just like his pal, Joseph Smith. It seems that it's not so much that the scribes actually changed Scripture, he is simply PROJECTING his own beliefs and actions onto the scribes.
And imagine what it would be like if one could simply reject any Scripture that didn't match what someone subjectively considers "common sense". Men would be free to pick and choose what they wanted to believe, and ignore the rest, and there would be pure chaos. No WONDER there are thousands of Mormon sects in existence!
Yep, we probably believe He does, because GOD SAID SO, right there in Scripture.
As the saying goes, "God said it, we believe it, that settles it."
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Of course, Smith didn't like that verse, and so he took it upon himself to CHANGE it to "justifieth NOT the ungodly", but there are ZERO (repeat, ZERO) manuscripts to support his change. EVERY SINGLE manuscript we have of Romans has the reading found in the KJV and all translations.
But it's not just Scripture, it actually IS "common sense", that "God justifies the ungodly". If we were ALREADY "godly", there would be no need to "justify" us, since we would already be "just". We NEED God to justify is, because we cannot justify ourselves. If we were already godly before God justified us, what does God "justifying" us actually accomplish? Does He simply "recognize" or "notarize" or "declare" what we have already done for ourselves?
There was a poster here, years ago, AaronShaf. Between the two of us, we came up with a good analogy of the ridiculousness of Mormon theology. Making ourselves "godly" before we are justified is like cleaning our house from top to bottom, before we hire the maid. The whole point of HAVING a maid is to clean the house for us!
Now THAT is an interesting comment, isn't it?
It points out the blatant double standard of Mormons.
They're allowed to reject Scripture they don't like (such as Rom. 4:5), but we're not allowed to reject Scripture WE don't like. "Rules for thee, but not for me."
And that's the whole problem with the Mormon view that the Bible has been "corrupted". If it has been corrupted, how do you know that Rom. 4:5 has been corrupted, but Ps. 82 hasn't? That's very conVEEEEEEEEEEEnient and self-serving, wouldn't you say? Last I checked, there hasn't been an official "list" of "corrupted verses in the Bible" put out by the "prophet".
But regarding Ps. 82, I can answer in two ways... We don't believe the MORMON misinterpretation of it, and rightly so, because the Mormon misinterpretation is contradicted by Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc. (btw, I type them out each time, from memory).
But we DO actually believe Ps. 82. We believe it and interpret it in a different way than Mormons do. We interpret it in a way that is consistent with ALL of Scripture.
Of course not.
The sins are not justified.
But the sinner can be forgiven.
Rom. 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Correct. And God causes them to be PENITENT through regeneration.
That's why He gives us a new heart, that makes us sorrowful for what we've done.
Sorry, that's not Biblical.
That's you making up your own personal theology.
Perhaps you can realize that theology over your own world when you get "promoted" to Godhood.
But for now, we live in God the Father's world.
And we live by HIS reality, not yours.
And I would "suggest" that God says you're wrong (Rom. 4:5).
I love how Mormons think they can play fast and loose with Scripture, and add to it indescriminantly, without ANY basis whatsoever.
Again, it seems that Mormons are projecting their OWN editorial "authority" onto the ancient scribes.
When "works" are mentioned, they are (1) excluded as to being "required" for salvation, and (2) what we will walk in AFTER we are saved:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Rom. 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Funny how "works" is always NEGATED in these passages...
Easy as pie to imagine! The Bible verses those in Mormonism do NOT like, that fully support salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, have been "corrupted." Even though they have zero evidence to support their assertions, they still make them. The burden of proof is on THEM to prove their assertion, but they never do. They practice this style of biblical hermeneutics:
But I too noted that the "godly" do NOT need to be justified, because they are already just in God's sight! It is the UNgodly that need justification--and that means ALL OF US, since ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.