Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

Aaron32

Well-known member
I’m pretty tired of the excuse that “not everything that is taught is doctrine.” These things were taught as doctrine by Joseph Smith and everyone after him. Until now, when modern mormons have decided it puts them in a crazy light, too far from mainstream Christianity.

Its all just plausible deniability now. Don’t tie any doctrine down too much, because you might have to deny it when it suits the current trend.

Bottom line is... it was false doctrine from the start, and mormons know that. For your own sake stop trying to rationalize it. The cognitive dissonance can ruin your mind and soul.

Just follow Christ alone.
No, you’re simply wrong. Any statement related to “as man now is, God once was, as God now is, man may become” ALL tie back to the King Follett Discourse, given 2 months before Joseph Smith’s death.
The cognitive dissonance are by those who are motivated for the Church to be wrong because it would mean that they need to repent. That’s why they have to “teach Mormons what they really believe”. It’s just a straw man argument, because it exposes how phony their religion is by denying the Holy Ghost and the necessity of apostles and prophets as shown in the Bible.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Sorry, but when the BoM says that "Father, Son, and HG are one God" then that seems pretty clear to me. And it doesn't say that just once, either. However, it also strays into Modalism, an early heresy condemned by the early church. This explains it pretty well:




Nonetheless, despite straying into Modalism--which the Bible NEVER DOES--it STILL says that Father, Son, and HG are ONE GOD. ONE--NOT three, as Smith later on said.
Ok. So, if I have a lawyer who represents me in court, how many people are recognized In the case “Aaron32 v the State Of (whatever)” or “Aaron32 & Aaron32’s lawyer v the State Of (whatever)”

John 5:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

If you honestly cant see the statement “one God” any other way, how to you interpret this?
John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

That God will then become more than a Trinity, and have multiple personages? That’s not a serious question, just an extreme example to prove my point.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ok. So, if I have a lawyer who represents me in court, how many people are recognized In the case “Aaron32 v the State Of (whatever)” or “Aaron32 & Aaron32’s lawyer v the State Of (whatever)”

Not sure why that's relevant:

Num. 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.

1Sam. 15:29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret,
for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.

John 5:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

Doesn't say, "two gods".

If you honestly cant see the statement “one God” any other way, how to you interpret this?
John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

Ask in the appropriate forum.
This is for discussing YOUR beliefs, not ours.

That God will then become more than a Trinity, and have multiple personages? That’s not a serious question, just an extreme example to prove my point.

You're right... NOT a serious question, but didn't "prove" any point, other than you admitting that you're not here for serious discussion.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
When "works" are mentioned, they are (1) excluded as to being "required" for salvation, and (2) what we will walk in AFTER we are saved:

Are you claiming one is saved independent of Christ's Blood?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
That is what your church teaches
No, we don't. We teach that work and faith are two sides of the same coin, basically, that faith without works is dead. We don't work our way into salvation. We simply work and God does the rest.
that temple works and covenants are necessary for Mormons to DO,
No. They aren't. But it would be stupid not to do them if you could. Some of us go that route and never get to the temple. They have the same opportunities for exaltation as anyone else does.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Don't you even know what your own BoM says? It is PLAINLY AND EXPLICITELY monotheistic and Trinitarian in nature, though it also strays into Modalism.
Nope. Never happens in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. They are both explicitly three beings in are God. There is no verse anywhere that describes God as a single being with three personalities. That' is an invention drummed up through Hellenistic philosophy.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Sure we do. We either believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and savior, and believe He rose from the dead and has forgiven our sins, and go to heaven (or the anteroom to heaven) after we die.
Well, good luck with that. Jesus was quite clear that the deeds we do in this life have a definite impact on which resurrection we will rise to. So, it's not just a matter of "I believe" and poof, you are saved, praise God, Amen, Hallelujah. If one doesn't do what they believe, then it's obvious that they don't believe.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
If you honestly cant see the statement “one God” any other way, how to you interpret this?
John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
Easy, they ignore it.
 

The Prophet

Active member
Ok. So, if I have a lawyer who represents me in court, how many people are recognized In the case “Aaron32 v the State Of (whatever)” or “Aaron32 & Aaron32’s lawyer v the State Of (whatever)”

John 5:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

If you honestly cant see the statement “one God” any other way, how to you interpret this?
John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

That God will then become more than a Trinity, and have multiple personages? That’s not a serious question, just an extreme example to prove my point.
John 17:21 isn't clear how their ONE but the Book of Mormon is clear how their ONE :)

9bU6fu0.jpg
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
No, you’re simply wrong. Any statement related to “as man now is, God once was, as God now is, man may become” ALL tie back to the King Follett Discourse, given 2 months before Joseph Smith’s death.
The cognitive dissonance are by those who are motivated for the Church to be wrong because it would mean that they need to repent. That’s why they have to “teach Mormons what they really believe”. It’s just a straw man argument, because it exposes how phony their religion is by denying the Holy Ghost and the necessity of apostles and prophets as shown in the Bible.
And there it is... the old “you must have sinned“ accusation. “You want the church to be wrong so you won’t have to repent.“ “You left the church because you must have sinned.”

Guess what... we all have to repent, no matter what. And it doesn’t have anything to do with what is true and what’s false.

Mormon leaders from the time of Joseph Smith all taught the concept that “as man is God once was, and is God is man may become.” It was everywhere... talks, lesson manuals, church publications. They had displays on temple square that said it. Church movies were made about it.

It was actually started by Lorenzo Snow, but Smith told him it was a revelation, and it was doctrine.

“As man now is, God once was:”

“As God now is, man may be.”

“I felt this to be a sacred communication, which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential private conversation with President Brigham Young, in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation.” (Eliza R. Snow, pp. 46–47; italics added. Brigham Young was President of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time.)

President Snow’s son LeRoi later told that the Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the validity of the revelation Elder Snow had received: “Soon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwood’s home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophet’s reply was: ‘Brother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.’” (LeRoi C. Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, p. 656.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith himself publicly taught the doctrine the following year, 1844, during a funeral sermon of Elder King Follett: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345–46.)

 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Is a butterfly a different “species” than a caterpillar?
No--and neither are offspring of a different species than their Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
 

The Prophet

Active member
No--and neither are offspring of a different species than their Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Smith was all over the place, wasn't he? Plus he lied--he did NOT always declare that Father, Son, and HG are three Gods.
And the Biblical OT writers never stated God the Son was separated out from the "one God"--nor that the God of the OT also had a God and Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So--were they "all over the place" also?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

Could you explain how you are relating any of that to my post, IE---

"No--and neither are offspring of a different species than their Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Could you explain how you are relating any of that to my post, IE---

"No--and neither are offspring of a different species than their Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

<sigh>

It's like a bad Abbott-and-Costello routine.... :(
 
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