Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

dberrie2020

Well-known member
But I am not discussing whether or not men can become deities,
Yes you were--this is your post?

Bonnie said:
The ECFs are not the Bible; therefore, what they wrote must be judged in light of what the ENTIRE Bible says. Also, what they wrote must be taken in context.

Theo has put down the following on here several times:

1) The ECF's were strict MONOTHEISTS. So when they spoke of men "becoming gods", they were not speaking of actually becoming deities

And, to be sure---I believe you, or anyone else who takes that stance--will have a hard time defending it:

"... He Himself has made us sons of the Father, and deified men by becoming Himself man. Therefore He was not man, and then became God, but He was God, and then became man, and that to deify us. ... And if all that are called sons and gods, whether in earth or in heaven, were adopted and deified through the Word, and the Son Himself is the Word, it is plain that through Him are they all, ..." ( Athanasius of Alexandria. "Against the Arians 1:38-39. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Phillip Schaff. Vol 4. New York: Christian Literature.1892. 329. Print. Ser.2)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Zerinus, I have seen all of this, many times. But it does not change what the first Presidency wrote, and is posted on your church's official website. They say man can evolve into a God. If this idea bothers you do much,then perhaps you should ask yourself WHY. Also, evolve just means to change from one form of life to another, usually from a lower to higher form. Well, isn't deity a higher form of life than mortal man? Doesn't man in Mormon theology change from a mortal man to deity, like going up the rungs of a ladder, until he achieves godhood? Isn't that evolution? Is the First Presidency wrong?
Of course it's a process of change which happens a little at a time.(evolutionary)

Bonnie--Zerinus is right--being exalted to His Throne to sit with God is a gift of God. It happens a little at a time, according to His grace.

Revelation 3:21---King James Version

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Why does it seem to be an issue with you--seeing most all the Early Church Fathers testified man may become gods, IE---

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one's self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God...But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God...and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men." (ANF 2.271).

Athanasius - De Incarnation 54 For He was made man that we might be made God. (NPNF, second series, 4.65).

<sigh>

Here we go again... (for the five hundred and thirty-seventh time....)

BIBLE:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God;  there is  none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD  is  God,  and that  there is  none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things. You alone are God.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God;  I know not  any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is  none besides me.  22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I  am  God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;  I am  God, and  there is  none like me,

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Book of Mormon:

Alma 11:27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.

Alma 11:44 [...], as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 14:5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, [...]

Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similittude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.


Early Church Fathers

1Clem. 43:6 But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality,

Mag. 8:2 [...] to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
 

Bonnie

Super Member

So--let's revisit your question, and my answer:





You asked for a yes or no answer. I answered--yes.

Why is that diversion?

Bonnie--both the Early Church Fathers--and Christ--testified men may become gods.

So--what is your point?
[/QUOTE]
Of course it's a process of change which happens a little at a time.(evolutionary)

Bonnie--Zerinus is right--being exalted to His Throne to sit with God is a gift of God. It happens a little at a time, according to His grace.

Revelation 3:21---King James Version

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

So, you agree with the First Presidency, that your church teaches that a man is capable of evolving into a God. Why you just did not simply write that you agree with the first presidency is beyond me. Instead you had to drag in a lot of superflous stuff about the ECFs that had nothing to do with what the First Presidency wrote. I made my point perfectly clear in the OP--that the other Mormons on the last board denied that their church teaches that men evolve into Gods. I was simply proving that it did and still DOES. That I was not misrepresenting what their church teaches, as I was accused of doing. THAT was my "point."

Theo addressed your other assertions just fine, in those quotes of his I put down on here, so no need to respond to you about that. Maybe if you want to discuss the ECFs and theosis, start a separate thread about that. Good-bye.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
<sigh>

Here we go again... (for the five hundred and thirty-seventh time....)

BIBLE:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God;  there is  none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD  is  God,  and that  there is  none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things. You alone are God.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God;  I know not  any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is  none besides me.  22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I  am  God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;  I am  God, and  there is  none like me,

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Book of Mormon:

Alma 11:27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.

Alma 11:44 [...], as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 14:5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, [...]

Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similittude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.


Early Church Fathers

1Clem. 43:6 But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality,

Mag. 8:2 [...] to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
Hi Theo! Good to see you! As you can see, I put down archived posts of yours on here, where you dealt with this theosis stuff and the ECFs. How can God be the ONLY God, with none coming after Him--yet men are supposed to be able to EVOLVE into Gods, just like HF...? Mathematically, that means MORE than one God. Yet God avers that HE ALONE is the true God, that none came before Him, and none will be formed AFTER Him.

John t is right--inconsistency IS the tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult. Though it is NOT so tiny in the LDS church!
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
<sigh>

Here we go again... (for the five hundred and thirty-seventh time....)

BIBLE:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God;  there is  none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD  is  God,  and that  there is  none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things. You alone are God.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God;  I know not  any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is  none besides me.  22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I  am  God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;  I am  God, and  there is  none like me,

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Book of Mormon:

Alma 11:27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.

Alma 11:44 [...], as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 14:5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, [...]

Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similittude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.


Early Church Fathers

1Clem. 43:6 But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality,

Mag. 8:2 [...] to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
And how are you relating any of that to the fact the Early Church Fathers testified to the reality of men being deified, or becoming gods? That both Christ and the Biblical writers testified to other real gods?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalm 82:1---King James Version

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The NT apostles testified to the same point, IE--there is but "one God"--separating out God the Son from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


So--does that mean Jesus can't be God?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And how are you relating any of that to the fact the Early Church Fathers testified to the reality of men being deified, or becoming gods? That both Christ and the Biblical writers testified to other real gods?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalm 82:1---King James Version

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
The NT apostles testified to the same point, IE--there is but "one God"--separating out God the Son from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


So--does that mean Jesus can't be God?

It's sad that you constantly IGNORE all the Scriptures I quoted for you, but simply run to your out-of-context "proof-texts".

It's sad that you quote ECF's (out of context, of course) to try to prove your false theology, but you IGNORE all the ECF's which contradict your view.


I've explained Ps. 82 to you, Ps. 86 to you, 1 Cor. 8 to you, MANY times, yet you simply ignore it, and repeat your same old nonsense.

I'll address 1 Cor. 8 to you ONE more time:



1Cor. 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto IDOLS, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto IDOLS, we know that an IDOLS is nothing in the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.


Paul is responding to the Corinthians asking about whether it's okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols. He explains that an "idol" (ie. a false god) is "nothing in the world". They don't exist.

He then supports his claim by stating a FOUNDATIONAL Jewish belief of monotheism (a teaching that you REJECT, btw) that "there is none other God but one".

"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."
"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."
"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."


You keep IGNORING that.
Why is that, I wonder?



1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are CALLED gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)


Then he points out that idols are "called" gods, even though they don't exist ("they are nothing in the world"), in the same way that the world CALLs many things "gods" (eg. Artemis, Zeus, Apollo, etc.), and calls many things "lords" (eg. Caesar), even though they ae not ACTUALLY "gods" or "lords".


He continues:


1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Paul then REITERATES that there is ONE God (one only), and we believe in one God, because we recognize that those other false gods ("idols") are not real at all, they only exist in the imaginations of other nations who don't know the truth.


NOWHERE does this passage support the false teaching of "multiple (true) gods".
It teaches that idols are FALSE gods, that they are "nothing in the world".
It teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Paul reiterates this TWICE in this very passage.

And we should expect no less, since Paul was a devout Jew.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So, you agree with the First Presidency, that your church teaches that a man is capable of evolving into a God. Why you just did not simply write that you agree with the first presidency is beyond me.

For the third time--yes, I agree. I have already "simply" wrote that three times now.

Instead you had to drag in a lot of superflous stuff about the ECFs that had nothing to do with what the First Presidency wrote.

The Early Church Fathers agreed with the First Presidency--men may BECOME gods. It is a gradual process--"evolutionary" is a good term to describe it.

I made my point perfectly clear in the OP--that the other Mormons on the last board denied that their church teaches that men evolve into Gods. I was simply proving that it did and still DOES. That I was not misrepresenting what their church teaches, as I was accused of doing. THAT was my "point."

And I was simply pointing out I agree with the First Presidency--and so does the Early Church Fathers, Christ, and the Biblical writers. Please see the above quotes already posted.

Bonnie--the fact is--that defies your theology which you claim here.

Very congenial to LDS theology.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It's sad that you constantly IGNORE all the Scriptures I quoted for you, but simply run to your out-of-context "proof-texts".
"out of context" is the usual claim of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures:


Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"out of context" is the usual claim of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures:


Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I've addressed this passage (John 10:34 is simply quoting Ps. 82) for you benefit at least 10-12 times already, on the old boards.

How many more times do I have to repeat myself?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Hi Theo! Good to see you! As you can see, I put down archived posts of yours on here, where you dealt with this theosis stuff and the ECFs. How can God be the ONLY God, with none coming after Him--yet men are supposed to be able to EVOLVE into Gods, just like HF...? Mathematically, that means MORE than one God. Yet God avers that HE ALONE is the true God, that none came before Him, and none will be formed AFTER Him.

John t is right--inconsistency IS the tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult. Though it is NOT so tiny in the LDS church!
Perhaps you and John would like to address the "inconsistencies"?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Not to mention the numerous Early Church Fathers references to men becoming gods. Centuries of them. Numerous in number:

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I've addressed this passage (John 10:34 is simply quoting Ps. 82) for you benefit at least 10-12 times already, on the old boards.

How many more times do I have to repeat myself?
Until you can make these passages go away:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Perhaps you and John would like to address the "inconsistencies"?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

For the 44,892nd time...

The "gods" in Ps. 82:1 are unrighteous HUMAN judges. They are CALLED "gods" because they have been given the AUTHORITY (but not the "nature") to decide judgments by the authority of God. Just READ THE PSALM!

Psa. 82:1 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

These so-called "gods" are evil sinners.
They "judge unjustly".
They "show partiality to the wicked".
They ignore the weak and fatherless.
They ignore the afflicted and destitute.
They ignore the weak and needy.

Psa. 82:5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.

These so-called "gods" are ignorant.
They "walk about in darkness".

They "will die like men".
They will "fall like any one of the princes"

This proves that they are NOT true "gods".
They will be punished for their sin and wickedness.
They think they are above punishment, but God tells them they are NOT.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

And then God, the ONE TRUE GOD, contrasts HIMSELF with these wicked sinnning rulers, who have been given God's authority and ABUSED it. HE is God, and they are not. And He will have His vengeance on THEM.


This is called an "imprecatory" Psalm.
It is intended to CONDEMN the evildoers.

And Jesus knew this.
That's why HE quoted it at the Pharisees in John 10, as a CONDEMNATION of THEIR attitudes.

Meanwhile, let us not forget what SCRIPTURE teaches, and what you constantly IGNORE:


Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and thatI am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


And Smith published the Book of Mormon while he was a MONOTHEIST, before he developed his "plural gods" doctrine:


"And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris"
-- Testimony of the Three Witnesses

Alma 11:27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
Alma 11:28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
Alma 11:29 And he answered, No.

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 14:5 And the people went forth and witnessed against themtestifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land.


Not to mention the numerous Early Church Fathers references

Oh, you accept what the ECF's taught, huh?

Well, here you go:

1Clem. 43:6 What think ye, dearly beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would come to pass? Assuredly he knew it. But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality, through whom also He made manifest unto us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mag. 8:2 Why, the Prophets, those men so very near to God, lived in conformity with Christ Jesus. This, too, was the reason why they were persecuted, inspired as they were by His grace to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Until you can make these passages go away:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I don't NEED the "passages to go away".

You are simply MISINTERPRETING them.

Understood correctly (which you don't), they are marvellous passages.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I don't NEED the "passages to go away".

You are simply MISINTERPRETING them.

Understood correctly (which you don't), they are marvellous passages.
"marvellous" they are--and they defy your argument.

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"marvellous" they are--and they defy your argument.

No, actually, they don't.
Simply ASSUMING and CLAIMING they "defy [my] argument", doesn't make it so.

The fact that YOU are the one who has to RUN AWAY from all the following Scriptures prove YOU are the one with the false theology:


Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and thatI am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You're the one who can't give a convincing argument of your false Mormon beliefs.
What do you believe isn't convincing about the testimony of Christ, the Biblical writers--or the Early Church Fathers--who testified of men becoming gods--or the existence of other real gods?

The Early Church Fathers believed in the "one God" also--and sustained the testimony men may become gods.

Even Christ testified to the reality of other gods:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Posting the "one God" scriptures won't make that go away.

In fact--the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What do you believe isn't convincing about the testimony of Christ,

You're the one who rejects the teachings of Christ, not me...


Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: FOR THERE IS ONE GOD; AND THERE IS NONE OTHER BUT HE:

What do you believe isn't convincing about the testimony of [...] the Biblical writers,

You're the one who rejects the teachings of the Biblical writers, not me...


Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and thatI am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What do you believe isn't convincing about the testimony of [...] the Early Church Fathers

You're the one who rejects the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, not me...


1Clem. 43:6 What think ye, dearly beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would come to pass? Assuredly he knew it. But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality, through whom also He made manifest unto us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mag. 8:2 Why, the Prophets, those men so very near to God, lived in conformity with Christ Jesus. This, too, was the reason why they were persecuted, inspired as they were by His grace to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
 
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