Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

dberrie2020

Well-known member
“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
That addresses the Trinity--Theosis, as the Early Church Fathers believed it--was men becoming gods--which were not part of the Trinity.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why did you ignore all the rest of the quotes I gave (like you always do)?
Because I believe a wall is constructed one brick at a time. I like dismantling it a brick at a time.

How do you answer to my retort, IE--

Theo1689 said:
“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity

That addresses the Trinity--Theosis, as the Early Church Fathers believed it--was men becoming gods--which were not part of the Trinity.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Because I believe a wall falls one brick at a time.

How do you answer to my retort, IE--



That addresses the Trinity--Theosis, as the Early Church Fathers believed it--was men becoming gods--which were not part of the Trinity.

Well, let's see....

Augustine taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were ONE God.
The Book of Mormon teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were ONE God.

But Mormons believe and teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are THREE gods.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Well, let's see....

Augustine taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were ONE God.
The Book of Mormon teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were ONE God.

But Mormons believe and teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are THREE gods.
And how does that address the Early Church Fathers testimony that men may become gods--or the Biblical writers testimony of the reality of other gods--or Christ's testimony of other gods?

Again--the Augustine quote was concerning the Trinity--how does that negate their testimony of men becoming gods?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And how does that address the Early Church Fathers testimony that men may become gods--or the Biblical writers testimony of the reality of other gods--or Christ's testimony of other gods?

Again--the Augustine quote was concerning the Trinity--how does that negate their testimony of men becoming gods?

I've explained your out-of-context "proof-texts" at least 10 times now, in the old boards and here.

In contrast, you keep RUNNING AWAY from all the Bible passages and ECF passages which teach that ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS.

Your refusal to address my responses, and your running away from the Bible, prove that YOU are the one with the false theology.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I've explained your out-of-context "proof-texts" at least 10 times now, in the old boards and here.
And I've explained "out of context" claims are usually made by those whose theology is violated by the scriptures.


Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalm 82:6---King James Version

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 86:8--King James Version
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

John 10:34-35---King James Version

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
The revelations I quoted, and which I go by, came from Joseph Smith. That is the standard which I am going by. How did you learn to talk so much nonsense? Was it hard? I couldn't do it if I tried. It must take a lot of talent to be able do that.
This is how Joseph Smith described the process of becoming a god...

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” ~ http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/kingfolletsermon.htm

You know, sometimes I think Smith might have believed in reincarnation... going from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

But anyway, he was describing a kind of evolution.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
This is how Joseph Smith described the process of becoming a god...

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” ~ http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/kingfolletsermon.htm

You know, sometimes I think Smith might have believed in reincarnation... going from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

But anyway, he was describing a kind of evolution.
So--were the Early Church Fathers describing some sort of evolution?

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee. (ANF 5.151).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3 ...the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity...And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God", and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were of Him the prototype. ...Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity. (ANF 10.323).
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
SO Joe Smith, in spite of his personal relationship with AN ANGEL OF GOD, "was not known for careful, accurate, theological thinking in those days". That reveals a lot about the "LDS Corporate standards".

Bob, good to see you. Your post had my husband and I laughing out loud. Perfect response.🎶
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
So--were the Early Church Fathers describing some sort of evolution?

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee. (ANF 5.151).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3 ...the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity...And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God", and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were of Him the prototype. ...Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity. (ANF 10.323).

Exactly why we don't put our faith in men, but rather only the Bible.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Exactly why we don't put our faith in men, but rather only the Bible.
Men wrote and translated the Bible.

So--was Jesus a man?

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

John 13:20---King James Version
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The ECFs are not the Bible; therefore, what they wrote must be judged in light of what the ENTIRE Bible says.
Here is an interesting article:


Lutherans and the Early Church Fathers---https://lutheranreformation.org/history/lutherans-early-church-fathers/

"These men taught and wrote throughout the Roman Empire: from Judea to England; from northern Africa to Italy and Asia Minor. They are the leading teachers of the whole Church throughout the first eight centuries of Christian history, and the Lutherans claim them as their fathers in the faith.

One of the main reasons a child turns to his father is to find help and guidance. When the Lutherans quoted an Early Church father they were not merely staying connected to the past. They were in a fight over pure doctrine. So, as they drew their teaching from Scripture, they also turned to their fathers for help in the arguments with the Roman Church and with the radical protestants."

 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Deification is indeed an essential and integral doctrine of the Church; but it doesn't come about by "evolution". People don't "evolve" to become gods, or deified. It is a gift that God bestows on those who obtain salvation and exaltation in his eternal kingdom. It is a gift of God.

In another thread, you said people can choose to be saved. If people can choose to be saved, then why do they have to wait for "Heavenly Father" to make them gods? Why can't they just choose to be gods like they chose to be saved?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
In another thread, you said people can choose to be saved. If people can choose to be saved, then why do they have to wait for "Heavenly Father" to make them gods? Why can't they just choose to be gods like they chose to be saved?
What is your evidence mankind doesn't choose all God has in store for them--when they choose to follow Christ?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It's sad that you constantly IGNORE all the Scriptures I quoted for you, but simply run to your out-of-context "proof-texts".

It's sad that you quote ECF's (out of context, of course) to try to prove your false theology, but you IGNORE all the ECF's which contradict your view.


I've explained Ps. 82 to you, Ps. 86 to you, 1 Cor. 8 to you, MANY times, yet you simply ignore it, and repeat your same old nonsense.

I'll address 1 Cor. 8 to you ONE more time:



1Cor. 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto IDOLS, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto IDOLS, we know that an IDOLS is nothing in the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.


Paul is responding to the Corinthians asking about whether it's okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols. He explains that an "idol" (ie. a false god) is "nothing in the world". They don't exist.

He then supports his claim by stating a FOUNDATIONAL Jewish belief of monotheism (a teaching that you REJECT, btw) that "there is none other God but one".

"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."
"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."
"THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE."


You keep IGNORING that.
Why is that, I wonder?



1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are CALLED gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)


Then he points out that idols are "called" gods, even though they don't exist ("they are nothing in the world"), in the same way that the world CALLs many things "gods" (eg. Artemis, Zeus, Apollo, etc.), and calls many things "lords" (eg. Caesar), even though they ae not ACTUALLY "gods" or "lords".


He continues:


1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Paul then REITERATES that there is ONE God (one only), and we believe in one God, because we recognize that those other false gods ("idols") are not real at all, they only exist in the imaginations of other nations who don't know the truth.


NOWHERE does this passage support the false teaching of "multiple (true) gods".
It teaches that idols are FALSE gods, that they are "nothing in the world".
It teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Paul reiterates this TWICE in this very passage.

And we should expect no less, since Paul was a devout Jew.
Great post, Theo. There are none so blind as those who REFUSE to see the Biblical truth...
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No, actually, they don't.
Simply ASSUMING and CLAIMING they "defy [my] argument", doesn't make it so.

The fact that YOU are the one who has to RUN AWAY from all the following Scriptures prove YOU are the one with the false theology:


Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and thatI am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Same old, ,same old tactics....ignore what we post, and simply repeat the same old, same old...but then, that is all that Mormons have, since their heretical doctrines cannot be supported by the Bible, and instead, the Bible shoots down their false doctrines all over the place.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
For the third time--yes, I agree. I have already "simply" wrote that three times now.



The Early Church Fathers agreed with the First Presidency--men may BECOME gods. It is a gradual process--"evolutionary" is a good term to describe it.



And I was simply pointing out I agree with the First Presidency--and so does the Early Church Fathers, Christ, and the Biblical writers. Please see the above quotes already posted.

Bonnie--the fact is--that defies your theology which you claim here.

Very congenial to LDS theology.

Good, you agree with your First Presidency. Perhaps you should explain it to the other Mormons on here, that I was correct on the last boards, when I said that your church teaches that men can EVOLVE into Gods. They had told me that your church does not teach that. But it DOES.

As for the rest, no, the Bible is NOT congenial to what passes for the abysmally low theology and Christology of the LDS church. In fact, the Bible contradicts it all over the place, as Theo and I and others have proven. Mormons must run away from all of the Bible verses that clearly show that there is only one true God in the universe. ONLY one. Whom should we believe? The LDS church's lying founding first prophet? OR God Himself, Who declares that HE ALONE IS GOD, that none came before Him and none will be formed after Him?

I will believe God over your church and its lies and its lying false prophet founder, any nanosecond of any day.

I will not be responding to you any more on this, since my purpose in posting this has been fulfilled--to prove that the LDS church DOES teach that mean can evolve into Gods, contrary to what Mormons on the last board told me, when they said that wasn't true. Good-bye.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes you were--this is your post?



And, to be sure---I believe you, or anyone else who takes that stance--will have a hard time defending it:

"... He Himself has made us sons of the Father, and deified men by becoming Himself man. Therefore He was not man, and then became God, but He was God, and then became man, and that to deify us. ... And if all that are called sons and gods, whether in earth or in heaven, were adopted and deified through the Word, and the Son Himself is the Word, it is plain that through Him are they all, ..." ( Athanasius of Alexandria. "Against the Arians 1:38-39. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Phillip Schaff. Vol 4. New York: Christian Literature.1892. 329. Print. Ser.2)
No, I was not discussing the ECFs. YOU brought them up first, not I. I was discussing whether or not your church teaches that men can EVOLVE into Gods. Mormons on the last board said that your church does not teach that, but what I posted in the OP proves that it DOES. That was my sole purpose in posting the OP.
 
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