Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

The Prophet

Active member
It would appear so, Bonnie. In black and white. Idolatry documented.

Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob



"The Gods who dwell in the Heaven...have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state....they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever." (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)



Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613-614,... Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.



“God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)



It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334



“The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (Apostle Bruce McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64).



Doctrine and Covenant’s 132:

20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Right before the last boards crashed and burned, I put down on here that in Mormon theology, man can evolve into a God. The Mormons on here denied that their church teaches any such thing. I did put down proof, however, that it DOES. Then the boards crashed and burned.

I found the following on their church's official website. This article is written by their church's First Presidency, as one can see, if one scrolls down to the very bottom and sees who penned this article. The article is rather long, entitled "The Origin of Man." It is full of a lot of unbiblical assertions, but it is the very last paragraph that interests me:




This is also reiterated in other places on the LDS official website:


Now, I have sometimes been accused on here of misrepresenting Mormon beliefs, without proof. I am perfectly willing to admit when I make mistakes, but I must be shown proof. But sometimes, even when I prove that I was correct in something the LDS church teaches, some Mormons still will refuse to believe it, sometimes holding to their own beliefs, contrary to what their church officially teaches.

So, I was correct in this "evolve into a God" assertion I made on the last boards. Their First Presidency made that very claim.
I won’t deny the Church DID teach this. They certainly did. Do I disagree with them? Yes, I do. By logic, reason, lack of scriptural evidence, and most importantly -the witness of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t see many teachings on it today, but rather the emphasis is on the doctrine of Christ. Now, pray tell, if I am wrong, according to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is my salvation affected?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I won’t deny the Church DID teach this. They certainly did. Do I disagree with them? Yes, I do. By logic, reason, lack of scriptural evidence, and most importantly -the witness of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t see many teachings on it today, but rather the emphasis is on the doctrine of Christ. Now, pray tell, if I am wrong, according to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is my salvation affected?
Are you still Mormon? Do you think your salvation is affected if you follow false prophets who teach false doctrine?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I won’t deny the Church DID teach this. They certainly did. Do I disagree with them? Yes, I do. By logic, reason, lack of scriptural evidence, and most importantly -the witness of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t see many teachings on it today, but rather the emphasis is on the doctrine of Christ. Now, pray tell, if I am wrong, according to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is my salvation affected?

Like I had said before, deification is an essential part of LDS theology, doctrine, and scripture. It is not an issue in dispute:

Doctrine and Covenants 76:

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
• • •
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
• • •
37 Abraham . . . abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.


These verses are the genuine authoritative sources. Now it is true that a lot of speculative material has subsequently been added to it which are just speculation, and should not be regarded as authoritative; even though some of them may have come from early past leaders of the Church. In those days people tended to be a lot more speculative than they are nowadays. But as long as one sticks to the authoritative sources quoted above, one cannot go wrong. But there is no question that deification has always been, and still remains, an essential and integral part of the theology and doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Men can become gods, period, no question about it! :)
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
I won’t deny the Church DID teach this. They certainly did. Do I disagree with them? Yes, I do. By logic, reason, lack of scriptural evidence, and most importantly -the witness of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t see many teachings on it today, but rather the emphasis is on the doctrine of Christ. Now, pray tell, if I am wrong, according to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is my salvation affected?
Assuming you mean salvation as understood biblically and not in Mormon doctrine where there is universal "salvation". Perhaps you meant exaltation. If biblically, then yes, your salvation is greatly affected for you believe in a false Jesus . The biblical Jesus was God from all eternity, took upon himself the form of a human while still having the nature of God. Lived as a man, died and then rose from the dead and ascended to heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father. He still is God and always has been.

Unfortunately, Mormons believe God was once a man and evolved or progressed to godhood as they may also do. That is idolatry. What is the commandment God gave Moses referring to that?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob


"The Gods who dwell in the Heaven...have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state....they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever." (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)


Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613-614,... Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.


“God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)


It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334


“The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (Apostle Bruce McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64).


Doctrine and Covenant’s 132:

20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

And your point is what?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you still Mormon? Do you think your salvation is affected if you follow false prophets who teach false doctrine?
Isn't there an LDS children's song called something like "Follow the Prophet" and it says that he won't lead you the wrong way? Something like that.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob



"The Gods who dwell in the Heaven...have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state....they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever." (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)



Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613-614,... Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.



“God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)



It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334



“The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (Apostle Bruce McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64).



Doctrine and Covenant’s 132:

20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
Not necessarily "fallen" though the Snow Couplet certainly implies that: "As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become." And man NOW is not only mortal, but SINFUL. I have seen youtubes of some Mormons saying that there is the possibility that God was once a sinner like us.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Assuming you mean salvation as understood biblically and not in Mormon doctrine where there is universal "salvation".
It is not a universal salvation. There are degrees of glory, but it a universal salvation.
Perhaps you meant exaltation. If biblically, then yes, your salvation is greatly affected for you believe in a false Jesus.
Or maybe you do.
The biblical Jesus was God from all eternity, took upon himself the form of a human while still having the nature of God. Lived as a man, died and then rose from the dead and ascended to heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father. He still is God and always has been.
The same as in Mormonism.
Unfortunately, Mormons believe God was once a man and evolved or progressed to godhood as they may also do. That is idolatry. What is the commandment God gave Moses referring to that?
In Mormon theology, eternity and infinity are divine attributes that can be acquired. If you find it hard to wrap your head around that, why is that our problem?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It is not a universal salvation. There are degrees of glory, but it a universal salvation.

Or maybe you do.

The same as in Mormonism.

In Mormon theology, eternity and infinity are divine attributes that can be acquired. If you find it hard to wrap your head around that, why is that our problem?
Resurrection from the dead in an immortal body is not salvation of any kind. Jesus said some would know the resurrection to life, and some, the resurrection unto judgment (damnation). It is NO gift to spend an eternity in suffering in hell!

No, Mormons have a very false Jesus Christ. He is an exalted creature, the firstborn spirit son of their God and some unnamed heavenly "mother." He did not exist until they "begot" him in some unnamed manner, even though their former prophet said that He was begotten of his father as we are of our fathers. The Mormon Jesus is also the actual brother of Satan in the pre-mortal, spirit existence, making them intrinsically and ontologically equal.

But in the Bible, Jesus is the uncreated, eternal Word of God, by whom all was created, including angels, and Satan and his angels are fallen angels, demons. Creatures.

We have no problem wrapping our minds around the idea that the true God of the Bible is infinite and eternal. At the Resurrection from the dead, all of us will become immortal, but we were not "eternal" as God is--we did not exist until He created mankind from the dust of the ground.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Are you still Mormon? Do you think your salvation is affected if you follow false prophets who teach false doctrine?
Yes, I'm still Mormon.
Prophets and Apostles hold an office in the Church. Sometimes, they preach false doctrine. That's their stewardship, they can account to God for that, it doesn't concern me.
Regardless of their errors, they still hold priesthood keys.

I can determine the truth of doctrine by the scriptures, repeated teachings of past church leaders, and fruits of the Spirit.

Thus, I strive not to believe in false doctrine. God will lead me to the truth in all things eventually. My salvation isn't contingent on what I know, but by my faith in Jesus Christ, evidenced in how I honor my covenants.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Like I had said before, deification is an essential part of LDS theology, doctrine, and scripture. It is not an issue in dispute:

Doctrine and Covenants 76:

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
• • •
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
• • •
37 Abraham . . . abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.


These verses are the genuine authoritative sources. Now it is true that a lot of speculative material has subsequently been added to it which are just speculation, and should not be regarded as authoritative; even though some of them may have come from early past leaders of the Church. In those days people tended to be a lot more speculative than they are nowadays. But as long as one sticks to the authoritative sources quoted above, one cannot go wrong. But there is no question that deification has always been, and still remains, an essential and integral part of the theology and doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Men can become gods, period, no question about it! :)
Thank you for the substantive response.
I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. If I am, is my salvation affected? I see no evidence that would support that.
While I will agree you have a valid point, we interpret these scriptures differently.

So, I'm invoking known principles of wisdom (both worldly & scripture) in my approach to your response:
  • Socrates: "The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms"
  • Proverbs 9:10: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
I will attempt to do both.

I think the term "gods" carries a lot implied meanings up for interpretation.
  • If we share the same Celestial Glory as Jesus Christ and God the Father then we are gods. We are one in all things.
    • A person who makes and faithfully keeps the marriage covenant made in the temple will attain a higher Celestial Glory vs. a person who isn't married in the Celestial Kingdom (aka. "an angel")​
  • Being a "god" does not mean we are a "god" unto ourselves. (Technically, that would be Telestial Glory)
    • Despite of Jesus' goodhood, he still submits to the Father, and we will always give glory to Jesus for our salvation (D&C 76:61-62)​
    • If we are gods, we will be working/serving more than anyone else. (Mark 10:44)​
  • The term "gods" in the scriptures also mean "judges" or "governors", etc.
    • In the temple, we are taught that we become "kings and priests unto the Most High God."​
    • We are given temporal blessings, spiritual gifts, callings, etc.​
    • If we are wise stewards our stewardship will increase: "you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things"
With "god" being interpreted in this way, I think we're in agreement.

Yet, some culture within our religion, and our critics may interpret "deification" as taking God's place. That we gain our own planets, that God the Father was once a mortal man and that he has a God. ("If you could hie to Kolob" begins playing in the background.) I see very little scriptural evidence to support this. Any authoritative statement made toward this, always ties back, or is referenced to the King Follett Sermon.
Yes, our stewardship will increase, but to what extent? We don't know. Moreover, does it matter? If our heart are "single to the glory of God", no, it really doesn't. There are no callings higher or lower in God's eyes. All play an important work in God's kingdom.

However, I do believe there is a danger of believing that God is an exalted man, and that we will become gods of our own planets.
  1. It's not scriptural.
  2. It's not logical. To what extent of God's create does Jesus atonement cover? Do we each have our own Savior? Would the Savior that get's that role get shafted? I mean, all of God's other children get to go on and create there own planets, but the Savior is stuck taking orders from Dad. Who is God the Father's father? What does the "Most High God" mean to you? It creates more questions than answers.
  3. If you need to exaggerate your heavenly reward that much to be motivated or complete your theological equation, then you're probably seeking your own glory, and probably don't possess the change of heart required to obtain Celestial Glory in the first place.
  4. It's misconstrued in the hands of our enemies, and becomes a stumbling block from people receiving the truth.
So, in the place of theological uncertainty is it more wise to exalt yourself, or to fear God?
Again, if I reject deification, is my salvation in jeopardy? If I'm wrong, then my expectations will be exceeded. If I'm right, then I'm right. I'll find joy serving God regardless of what I am rewarded.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Assuming you mean salvation as understood biblically and not in Mormon doctrine where there is universal "salvation". Perhaps you meant exaltation. If biblically, then yes, your salvation is greatly affected for you believe in a false Jesus . The biblical Jesus was God from all eternity, took upon himself the form of a human while still having the nature of God. Lived as a man, died and then rose from the dead and ascended to heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father. He still is God and always has been.

Unfortunately, Mormons believe God was once a man and evolved or progressed to godhood as they may also do. That is idolatry. What is the commandment God gave Moses referring to that?
I don't care so much about exaltation, it's nice, but a bonus. I'm asking about salvation.

The Christ I believe in is described here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...anual/34190/34190_000_WWC_27-LivingChrist.pdf

It's the belief of deification that I'm challenging against my fellow Mormons. Yet, I also don't subscribe that God is a different race than us, either. We are his children.

The debate is pivotal on if Jesus was created or not. I don't believe He was created. There's not scriptural evidence to support that, but he did have to progress and grow in some degree in mortality as we do. Else why is the Father called "the Father" and the Son called "the Son."?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Thank you for the substantive response.
I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. If I am, is my salvation affected? I see no evidence that would support that.
While I will agree you have a valid point, we interpret these scriptures differently.

So, I'm invoking known principles of wisdom (both worldly & scripture) in my approach to your response:
  • Socrates: "The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms"
  • Proverbs 9:10: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
I will attempt to do both.

I think the term "gods" carries a lot implied meanings up for interpretation.
  • If we share the same Celestial Glory as Jesus Christ and God the Father then we are gods. We are one in all things.
    • A person who makes and faithfully keeps the marriage covenant made in the temple will attain a higher Celestial Glory vs. a person who isn't married in the Celestial Kingdom (aka. "an angel")​
  • Being a "god" does not mean we are a "god" unto ourselves. (Technically, that would be Telestial Glory)
    • Despite of Jesus' goodhood, he still submits to the Father, and we will always give glory to Jesus for our salvation (D&C 76:61-62)​
    • If we are gods, we will be working/serving more than anyone else. (Mark 10:44)​
  • The term "gods" in the scriptures also mean "judges" or "governors", etc.
    • In the temple, we are taught that we become "kings and priests unto the Most High God."​
    • We are given temporal blessings, spiritual gifts, callings, etc.​
    • If we are wise stewards our stewardship will increase: "you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things"
With "god" being interpreted in this way, I think we're in agreement.
I Prefer to go by the definitions and descriptions that the scripture gives. The scriptures I had quoted give the following list of the attributes of deification:
  • They overcome by faith.
  • They are the church of the Firstborn.
  • Into their hands God has given all things.
  • They are priests and kings.
  • They have received of his fulness and of his glory.
  • They are priests of the Most High.
  • They are gods, even the sons of God.
  • All things are theirs.
  • They shall overcome all things.
  • They have no end.
  • They shall be from everlasting to everlasting.
  • They shall be above all.
  • All things are subject unto them.
  • They have all power, and the angels are subject to them.
Why invent your own list, when God has already given you a better one?
Yet, some culture within our religion, and our critics may interpret "deification" as taking God's place. That we gain our own planets, that God the Father was once a mortal man and that he has a God. ("If you could hie to Kolob" begins playing in the background.) I see very little scriptural evidence to support this. Any authoritative statement made toward this, always ties back, or is referenced to the King Follett Sermon.
Yes, our stewardship will increase, but to what extent? We don't know. Moreover, does it matter? If our heart are "single to the glory of God", no, it really doesn't. There are no callings higher or lower in God's eyes. All play an important work in God's kingdom.

However, I do believe there is a danger of believing that God is an exalted man, and that we will become gods of our own planets.
  1. It's not scriptural.
  2. It's not logical. To what extent of God's create does Jesus atonement cover? Do we each have our own Savior? Would the Savior that get's that role get shafted? I mean, all of God's other children get to go on and create there own planets, but the Savior is stuck taking orders from Dad. Who is God the Father's father? What does the "Most High God" mean to you? It creates more questions than answers.
  3. If you need to exaggerate your heavenly reward that much to be motivated or complete your theological equation, then you're probably seeking your own glory, and probably don't possess the change of heart required to obtain Celestial Glory in the first place.
  4. It's misconstrued in the hands of our enemies, and becomes a stumbling block from people receiving the truth.
So, in the place of theological uncertainty is it more wise to exalt yourself, or to fear God?
Again, if I reject deification, is my salvation in jeopardy? If I'm wrong, then my expectations will be exceeded. If I'm right, then I'm right. I'll find joy serving God regardless of what I am rewarded.
Most of that is speculation. They are not Church doctrine. Becoming "god of your own planet" is nonsense, and not Church doctrine. Who wants to be a "god of their own planet" when they can have all that the Fater has? (D&C 84:38)? Do you know how many "planets" God has? Who wants to have their own "planet," when they can have all the ones that God has?
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
I Prefer to go by the definitions and descriptions that the scripture gives. The scriptures I had quoted give the following list of the attributes of deification:
  • They overcome by faith.
  • They are the church of the Firstborn.
  • Into their hands God has given all things.
  • They are priests and kings.
  • They have received of his fulness and of his glory.
  • They are priests of the Most High.
  • They are gods, even the sons of God.
  • All things are theirs.
  • They shall overcome all things.
  • They have no end.
  • They shall be from everlasting to everlasting.
  • They shall be above all.
  • All things are subject unto them.
  • They have all power, and the angels are subject to them.
Why invent your own list, when God has already given you a better one?


Because I don't see the word "deification" anywhere in that scripture. That would be "adding" to scripture.
But if you want to say we both believe in the scripture, then we are in agreement.

Most of that is speculation. They are not Church doctrine. Becoming "god of your own planet" is nonsense, and not Church doctrine. Who wants to be a "god of their own planet" when they can have all that the Fater has? (D&C 84:38)? Do you know how many "planets" God has? Who wants to have their own "planet," when they can have all the ones that God has?
Right. Yet, this is what people, not of our religion, think of when you say "deification." There are "scholars" that preach to Christian churches that this is what we believe. So, please, all I ask, is that we approach the subject more cautiously and less resolutely on the subject of "deification" when we speak to others not of our faith. Please?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Because I don't see the word "deification" anywhere in that scripture. That would be "adding" to scripture.
But if you want to say we both believe in the scripture, then we are in agreement.
The word "deification" might not be, but "becoming gods" is. "Deification" = "becoming Gods". Arguing semantics is not a good idea.
Right. Yet, this is what people, not of our religion, think of when you say "deification." There are "scholars" that preach to Christian churches that this is what we believe. So, please, all I ask, is that we approach the subject more cautiously and less resolutely on the subject of "deification" when we speak to others not of our faith. Please?
So you are proposing that we change or compromise our doctrine because of what others might think? Jesus never did that. His disciples and Apostles never did that. And neither will I. And in case you didn't know, the early Christians unanimously believed in deification, or "theosis" or "divinization," which are the words that are more often used in the relevant literature to refer to it. "Theosis" = "deification" = "divinization" = "becoming gods" = what the early Christians unanimously believed. I have no worries about using the word "deification," l don't know about you.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
"Theosis" = "deification"

Um, wrong.

= "becoming gods" = what the early Christians unanimously believed.

Wrong again.

1Clem. 43:6 What think ye, dearly beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would come to pass? Assuredly he knew it. But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality, through whom also He made manifest unto us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mag. 8:2 Why, the Prophets, those men so very near to God, lived in conformity with Christ Jesus. This, too, was the reason why they were persecuted, inspired as they were by His grace to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras  also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity

= "becoming gods" = what the early Christians unanimously believed.

And why are you running away to the "early Christians", and IGNORING what the BIBLE actually teaches?:


Deut. 4:39 Today realize and carefully consider that the LORD is God in heaven above and on earth below–there is no other!

Isa. 44:6 This is what the LORD, Israel’s king, says,
their protector,7 the LORD who commands armies:
“I am the first and I am the last,
there is no God but me.

Isa. 44:8 Don’t panic! Don’t be afraid!11
Did I not tell you beforehand and decree it?
You are my witnesses! Is there any God but me?
There is no other sheltering rock; I know of none.

Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, I have no peer, there is no God but me.
I arm you for battle, even though you do not recognize me.

1 Kings 8:60 Then all the nations of the earth will recognize that the LORD is the only genuine God.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things. You alone are God.

Mark 12:32 The expert in the law said to him, “That is true, Teacher; you are right to say that he is one, and there is no one else besides him.

1Cor. 8:4 With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol in this world is nothing,” and that “there is no God but one.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
The word "deification" might not be, but "becoming gods" is. "Deification" = "becoming Gods". Arguing semantics is not a good idea.

So you are proposing that we change or compromise our doctrine because of what others might think? Jesus never did that. His disciples and Apostles never did that. And neither will I. And in case you didn't know, the early Christians unanimously believed in deification, or "theosis" or "divinization," which are the words that are more often used in the relevant literature to refer to it. "Theosis" = "deification" = "divinization" = "becoming gods" = what the early Christians unanimously believed. I have no worries about using the word "deification," l don't know about you.
Fine, then use scriptural text and limit your belief to the term "becoming gods" to be precise, and stop inserting terms that aren't there that mean different things to different people.
I'm proposing, that we check understanding of those we serve, and "walk a mile twain" by going to the level they are at rather than treat them like we want them to be at. I never said anything about compromising our doctrine. In this day and age, you wouldn't go out into the street and loudly call a black person a "Negro" within a group of people. In fact, you probably wouldn't say at all and expect people to receive it with the highest and noblest intent, by justifying it with "What? 'Negro' = 'Black person' - there's nothing wrong with that." Yet, a hundred years ago, you could probably get away with it.
You're either seeking to gather or scatter - to either help the work or hinder it.
 
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