Does the LDS church teach that men can evolve into a God?

[dberrie2020]

Response was to zerinius.

Retort was to Organgrinder:

Something has been brought to the table--

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Crickets.

 

[dberrie2020]

We've explained this to you at least FIFTY times already.
You can choose to disagree with our explanation (since your false theology REQUIRES you to), but you CANNOT say you got "Crickets".

Psa. 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he qholds judgment:

The NET notes:

"The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (‏אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5)."

That only identifies who you believe the gods of the Divine Council are. You have to make them go away.

What you haven't explained is how humans are gods in the Divine Council. And, if they gods are real gods--then how you fit that into the theology pawned here?

 

[dberrie2020]

2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

These verses demonstrate that the "gods" are wicked human rulers, who are "judging unjustly", and "showing partiality to the wicked".

The one true God of creation is REBUKING those wicked judges, who are abusing His authority.

Psa. 82:5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

More proof that it isn't talking about "real" gods.

Psa. 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;

Now God ELABORATES on what He means, those wicked rulers are "sons of the Most High", not actual "gods".

Hmmmm. gods--- which are part of the Divine Council--which aren't really gods? How did they fool God?

 

[Bonnie]

Hmmmm. gods--- which are part of the Divine Council--which aren't really gods? How did they fool God?

Why do you ignore the rest of Scripture, like all of the verses that say there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, that Theo and I have both posted on here, many times? And why do you ignore the following verses that I have posted on here, that are similar in content and wording to Ps. 82?

Here we go, from Isaiah 1, NASB:

Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed

21 How the faithful city has become a harlot,
She who was full of justice!
Righteousness once lodged in her,
But now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
Your drink diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels
And companions of thieves;
Everyone loves a bribe
And chases after rewards.
They do not defend the orphan,
Nor does the widow’s plea come before them.

The language here is similar in tone to Ps. 82.

Here is more from Isaiah 3:

God Will Judge

13 The Lord arises to contend,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people,
“It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 “What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the face of the poor?”
Declares the Lord God of hosts.

Again, note the similarity to Ps. 82. Especially the bolded verses.

From Isaiah 5:

21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
22 Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine
And valiant men in mixing strong drink,
23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,
And take away the]rights of the ones who are in the right!


And one more, from Isaiah 10:

1Woe to those who enact evil statutes
And to those who constantly record [a]unjust decisions,
2 So as to deprive the needy of justice
And rob the poor of My people of their rights,
So that widows may be their spoil
And that they may plunder the [c]orphans.
3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment,
And in the devastation which will come from afar?

And why have you ignored the questions I have asked you about Ps. 82 and never given me a direct answer to them?

1. IF the "gods" in Ps. 82 are actual deities, why are they judging unjustly? Wouldn't that make them sinners, like demons?
2. If the "gods" in Ps. 82 are actual deities, who are supposed to judge, then how would people contact them, so they could render judgments for them, in both civil and religious matters?
3.IF the "gods" in Ps. 82 are actual deities, then how could they "die like men"? Does deity die? Jesus died, but He became a human being when He was incarnated. Humans can die...but can actual deity die?

Will you finally step up to the plate and deal with these verses and finally give me direct answers to these questions? OR will you ignore them and continue to demonstrate the first 5 Mormon debate tactics in my signature?

 

[Theo1689]

What you haven't explained is how humans are gods in the Divine Council. And, if they gods are real gods--then how you fit that into the theology pawned here?

They are "gods" in the sense that they are given the AUTHORITY of God to rule over Israel.
They REPRESENT the one true God.

But they are not "real" gods, but wretched sinners, who "will die like men, and fall like one of the princes".

You IGNORE the context of the Psalm.
You IGNORE the rest of the Bible which teaches that ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS.

 

[organgrinder]

Retort was to Organgrinder:

Something has been brought to the table--

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Crickets.

Just to reiterate, I don't care to respond to you. You are not serious and haven't changed. You made your position very clear on the old boards. This is just a reminder.

 

[The Prophet]

Right. We have the Bible. It's been beat up pretty bad by those who handed it down, but It still contains many truths.

God Is An Exalted Man - | - Mormon Handbook

Mormon General Authorities teach that God was not always God, but was once a mortal man. God ...

www.mormonhandbook.com

 

[brotherofJared]

No, it doesn't. Apostacy would be the departure completely from the true teachings of the true gospel of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible.

That's what happens when the priesthood is lost. That's what happens when you don't have, in the church, first apostles, second prophets, etc. etc. etc.

And guess what? That's what happened.

The church never completely apostatized

There were are the apostles who are first in the church?

Jesus said the gates of hell/hades would NOT prevail against His church

And they didn't. Guess where His church is today. Where you find first apostles and second prophets, that would be a good place to start looking. Is there such a church on the earth today? Yes. Did the gates of hell prevail? No. I guess Jesus was right.

That means it would never disappear.

That's what you think it means, but that's not what it says.

But according to your false founding prophet, it did.

History backs up that assertion and you want to know the first indication that an apostasy occurred? The fact that there were no apostles or prophets in the church since, John.

You can believe what you want about the priesthood you think you hold, but believing does not make it so.

 

[brotherofJared]

In your Mormon dreams. Reinventing definitions. Typical. Ignoring what Jesus Himself said.

We can see that through history many believers fought to keep the principles taught in the early church but over time, many of them were branded as heretics and finally, around 400AD, the militant majority came up with a new God for the Christians to worship and that God still prevails in almost all modern Christian churches today. He is a entity with no body parts or passions, lives outside of time and space and has 3 personalities.

But we can see, in Christ, that that is simply not true. He is a God with body, parts and passions. He is a God who lives in time and space and, in every instance of Christ's life, when the Father appeared, unless you think he was making his own voice come from the heavens, it's obvious that God is not a single entity with three personalities.

 

[Bonnie]

We can see that through history many believers fought to keep the principles taught in the early church but over time, many of them were branded as heretics and finally, around 400AD, the militant majority came up with a new God for the Christians to worship and that God still prevails in almost all modern Christian churches today. He is a entity with no body parts or passions, lives outside of time and space and has 3 personalities.

But we can see, in Christ, that that is simply not true. He is a God with body, parts and passions. He is a God who lives in time and space and, in every instance of Christ's life, when the Father appeared, unless you think he was making his own voice come from the heavens, it's obvious that God is not a single entity with three personalities.

The early church never, ever taught any of the doctrines unique to the LDS church, OR its temple works and covenants. Those were made up by the LDS church's lying false prophet founder.

And it is VERY obvious from the Biblical witness that God is One Being somehow composed of 3 distinct Persons/Identities. That would be impossible with us, but "with God. NOTHING is impossible." Even your very own BoM supports monotheism and that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are "One God,."

 

[brotherofJared]

They are "gods" in the sense that they are given the AUTHORITY of God to rule over Israel.

When did they sit in council with God? When did God say any of this to them? You realize, I hope, that all of Ps 82 was recorded when there wasn't any judges that ruled in Israel. They had kings, not judges.

So me any text that called magistrates "gods" in the new testament.

I believe that your argument IGNORES the context of Ps 82.

 

[brotherofJared]

The early church never, ever taught any of the doctrines unique to the LDS church,

From what I can tell, the early church never ever taught any of the doctrines unique to our critics' doctrines. Where are you apostles and prophets? The early church had them, you don't. That was taught and practiced in the early church. Your statement is blatantly false.

 

[brotherofJared]

And it is VERY obvious from yhe Biblicsl witness that God is One Being somehow composed of 3 distinct Perskns/Identities

This statement is also blatantly false. The Biblical witness is very clear that God is a single being that Christ taught us to worship and pray to and who he ascended to after his resurrection. If you believe that Jesus is also God, then that makes you a polytheist. Do you believe that Jesus is God? If so, then who is it that spoke from heaven saying, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased"? Was it Jesus who said that?

I find your term "somehow" to be a word that destroys your argument. He's "somehow composed".

 

[Bonnie]

Right. We have the Bible. It's been beat up pretty bad by those who handed it down, but It still contains many truths.

No, it has not. Thousands of ancient GNT copies, whole or in part, written during the first few centuries of the church by many different scribes that agree 99.5% of the time, exist--and where they don't, no doctrine is violated. No other ancient writing has survived in anywhere near the number of copies that the NT has.

 

[organgrinder]

We can see that through history many believers fought to keep the principles taught in the early church but over time, many of them were branded as heretics and finally, around 400AD, the militant majority came up with a new God for the Christians to worship and that God still prevails in almost all modern Christian churches today. He is a entity with no body parts or passions, lives outside of time and space and has 3 personalities.

But we can see, in Christ, that that is simply not true. He is a God with body, parts and passions. He is a God who lives in time and space and, in every instance of Christ's life, when the Father appeared, unless you think he was making his own voice come from the heavens, it's obvious that God is not a single entity with three personalities.

And that is your error and your church's error. You disbelieve the biblical scriptures and try to rationalize them to fit your theology with that there are man gods and that you, too, may become one.

 

[brotherofJared]

No, it has not.

LOL. Yes. It has. First, it wasn't even compiled until 300 years after the death of the apostles. In that time, most of what the apostles taught was destroyed or declared heretical. You can't tell me that Paul was the principal speaker for all of the apostles. What do we have? Three apostles, not including Paul? All the other apostles were mute? Stephen didn't have anything to say until he died?

Sorry Bonnie, The scriptures were brutalized before we got them and the Jews did some pretty heavy redacting themselves.

Thousands of ancient GNT copies, whole or in part, written during the first few centuries of the church by many different scribes that agree 99.5% of the time

We don't have any original manuscripts from the first century, NONE. All we have is copies of copies and I would hope, that they could get the copies correct, but we have evidence of the copies being tampered with both intentionally and unintentionally, or at least we think it was unintentional. Once an error creeps in, the copies are going to have errors. They can be a 100% accurate copy and still be wrong.

I'm telling you, you might not like it, but the story about the Holy Ghost killing a man and his wife while the apostles laid in wait for the wife to see if she'd tell the same lie her husband did, is not true. So sorry, but that is an error that we'll never get corrected without the original manuscripts and that wasn't even told by an apostle. It's a wive's tale. It may have been centered around an actual event, but no one was killed by the Holy Ghost and the apostles weren't laying in wait to see if the wife would tell the same lie her husband did. Also, God never intended for the men of God to be celibate. That would be in direct violation of his first commandment to be fruitful and multiply. That's just the tip of the "copied" errors that still exist and will continue to exist because we have nothing to correct these errors, except common sense. It would be nice if we had, in the church, first apostles and second prophets...

 

[organgrinder]

LOL. Yes. It has. First, it wasn't even compiled until 300 years after the death of the apostles. In that time, most of what the apostles taught was destroyed or declared heretical. You can't tell me that Paul was the principal speaker for all of the apostles. What do we have? Three apostles, not including Paul? All the other apostles were mute? Stephen didn't have anything to say until he died?

Sorry Bonnie, The scriptures were brutalized before we got them and the Jews did some pretty heavy redacting themselves.

We don't have any original manuscripts from the first century, NONE. All we have is copies of copies and I would hope, that they could get the copies correct, but we have evidence of the copies being tampered with both intentionally and unintentionally, or at least we think it was unintentional. Once an error creeps in, the copies are going to have errors. They can be a 100% accurate copy and still be wrong.

I'm telling you, you might not like it, but the story about the Holy Ghost killing a man and his wife while the apostles laid in wait for the wife to see if she'd tell the same lie her husband did, is not true. So sorry, but that is an error that we'll never get corrected without the original manuscripts and that wasn't even told by an apostle. It's a wive's tale. It may have been centered around an actual event, but no one was killed by the Holy Ghost and the apostles weren't laying in wait to see if the wife would tell the same lie her husband did. Also, God never intended for the men of God to be celibate. That would be in direct violation of his first commandment to be fruitful and multiply. That's just the tip of the "copied" errors that still exist and will continue to exist because we have nothing to correct these errors, except common sense. It would be nice if we had, in the church, first apostles and second prophets...

and the nice thing about having copies of copies is that we can see they were preserved for us. Your corruption argument (actually your church's argument) fell flat when the Dead Sea scrolls were unearthed and they found a nearly intact scroll of Isaiah 1000 years older than anything else they had previously. Hmmmmm..........

 

[brotherofJared]

And that is your error and your church's error.

Umm, Yea. "that" is your error.

You disbelieve the biblical scriptures and try to rationalize them to fit your theology with that there are man gods and that you, too, may become one.

Isn't Jesus a "man god"? Was he not a man and is a god?

The idea that we may become one is taught in the scriptures. It is what a "joint-heir" is. That's what it means to sit on the throne with Him. What else would John mean when he says we will be "like him"?

So sorry, but the Bible does teach that we "may become one". It appears that you disbelieve the biblical scriptures and try to rationalize them to fit your theology. That is your error.

 

[Bonnie]

LOL. Yes. It has. First, it wasn't even compiled until 300 years after the death of the apostles. In that time, most of what the apostles taught was destroyed or declared heretical. You can't tell me that Paul was the principal speaker for all of the apostles. What do we have? Three apostles, not including Paul? All the other apostles were mute? Stephen didn't have anything to say until he died?

Sorry Bonnie, The scriptures were brutalized before we got them and the Jews did some pretty heavy redacting themselves.

We don't have any original manuscripts from the first century, NONE. All we have is copies of copies and I would hope, that they could get the copies correct, but we have evidence of the copies being tampered with both intentionally and unintentionally, or at least we think it was unintentional. Once an error creeps in, the copies are going to have errors. They can be a 100% accurate copy and still be wrong.

I'm telling you, you might not like it, but the story about the Holy Ghost killing a man and his wife while the apostles laid in wait for the wife to see if she'd tell the same lie her husband did, is not true. So sorry, but that is an error that we'll never get corrected without the original manuscripts and that wasn't even told by an apostle. It's a wive's tale. It may have been centered around an actual event, but no one was killed by the Holy Ghost and the apostles weren't laying in wait to see if the wife would tell the same lie her husband did. Also, God never intended for the men of God to be celibate. That would be in direct violation of his first commandment to be fruitful and multiply. That's just the tip of the "copied" errors that still exist and will continue to exist because we have nothing to correct these errors, except common sense. It would be nice if we had, in the church, first apostles and second prophets...

Almost nothing you wrote is the truth. The core of the NT--the 4 Gospels, Paul's letters, and Acts--were accepted as canon by around 200 AD or so. It took a little longer for the rest of the NT books to be accepted, but they were. It was not something done quickly or lightly, but with care and discernment. Much more carefully than the folks that accepted your founding prophet's pious fairy tale, the BoM.

And you have proof that Acts 5 never happened...? How? And the Apostles did not "lie in wait" to see if Sapphira would tell the truth or not. There is zero evidence from the account that they were "lying in wait" for her. But no one forced her or Ananias to lie. That was entirely on them.

And where did I or anyone else on here claim God intended men of God to be celibate? Please show me where any of us ever wrote that...

 

[brotherofJared]

and the nice thing about having copies of copies is that we can see they were preserved for us.

Again, you missed the point, the nice thing about having copies of copies is that you can see that the ERRORS were preserved and the original content left completely unknown. You see, that's the nice thing about the Book of Mormon. It was left untouched by men for over a thousand years, no modifications made. And we can see, that even in the case of the Book of Mormon being around for only 200 years, that there have been several modifications and corrections. That is what men do. We modify things even when we believe it to be God-breathed. It happens. The sad thing for the Bible is we have no originals to compare the copies to. But there is one thing we can be sure of, we are sure that the errors are 99.5% accurate errors.