Does the morning-after-pill count as abortion?

BMS

Well-known member
So you too have subjective morality.

Not all unwanted pregnancies are the results of fecklessness.contracepeption can fail. Also circumstances can change, such that a welcome pregnancy becomes an unwelcome one. There are so many ways for a pregnancy to be or become problematic, that it makes no sense to try and list them all. Clear guidance as to when an abortion is legal and when it is not,is all that's required.

So you have a moral view, but recognise that others have a different moral view. You think yours is "correct" but recognise that you cannot prove it because ultimately it comes down to opinion . Welcome to subjective morality.

Who said it's the only solution? It's a solution, which you want to ban. Who's trying to ban adoption?

Unwilling compromise is just another way of saying compromise. Of course you are unwilling. So what?

I have personally been involved in three such occasions. I have no reason to believe that they were even unusual.

Always. Except when they don't. Has I have said three times now. Why do you think that misrepresentation is a sensible tactic? Do you think I won't notice?
Or not as I explained, which you couldnt understand
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
So you too have subjective morality.
No, my morality is objective. Just because I believe we do not live in a theocracy and thus are limited in terms of what the law can do, does not entail my morality is subjective. Wrong is wrong---but I leave it up to God to judge--when it involves behaviors between consenting adults.

Just like I think you sin by being an atheist and the things you support--like abortion for example. But God is the judge. I am not.
Not all unwanted pregnancies are the results of fecklessness/contraception can fail.
Then put on a condom too. Or don't have sex, or have surgery, or do any one of 100 things to prevent a pregnancy. Abortion is not justifiable just because contraception failed.
Also circumstances can change, such that a welcome pregnancy becomes an unwelcome one. There are so many ways for a pregnancy to be or become problematic, that it makes no sense to try and list them all. Clear guidance as to when an abortion is legal and when it is not, is all that's required.
Fine. I agree with this.
So you have a moral view but recognize that others have a different moral view. You think yours is "correct" but recognize that you cannot prove it because ultimately it comes down to opinion. Welcome to subjective morality.
No. My moral standards are objective. Wrong is wrong, evil is evil, sin is sin. God is the judge. I call out behaviors/actions that are sin/morally wrong, but God judges the person. I judge behaviors/actions, not people. God judges behaviors/actions and people.
Who said it's the only solution? It's a solution, which you want to ban. Who's trying to ban adoption?
You are.

Didn't you say "Adoption needs to be outlawed because it is a threat to abortion? We need more abortions, not less? I love abortion so we need to outlaw all adoptions?"

Since you apparently cannot tell when I am being facetious--I will tell you right out: I am being facetious in the above. Ha, ha!
Unwilling compromise is just another way of saying compromise. Of course, you are unwilling. So what?
So---my point was that this does not entail my morality is subjective.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
No, my morality is objective. Just because I believe we do not live in a theocracy and thus are limited in terms of what the law can do, does not entail my morality is subjective. Wrong is wrong [...]
Can you prove that any action is objectively wrong?
I judge behaviors/actions, not people.
You also said that you think that atheism is a sin.
Atheism is neither a behaviour nor an action.
 

BMS

Well-known member
As so frequently, you are wrong.
In your opinion as opposed to my explanation of why you are wrong.
In short with an objective moral standard we can criticise your morals. On the other hand since you say morals are up to the individual you shouldnt be arguing about our morals.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
No, my morality is objective. Just because I believe we do not live in a theocracy and thus are limited in terms of what the law can do, does not entail my morality is subjective. Wrong is wrong---but I leave it up to God to judge--when it involves behaviors between consenting adults.

Just like I think you sin by being an atheist and the things you support--like abortion for example. But God is the judge. I am not.
That you outsource your moral code to God, even supposing God to be real, doesn't make your morality objective. It just makes it the same as God's. Thigh in practice I suspect that like every other Christian, particularly those who disagree with you on moral matters, that your morality isn't the same as God's at all. Quite the reverse. God's is, in your view, the same as yours. Funny how that happens. You even get Americans declaring that God is American. You don't get Nigerians saying that. Every Christian has their own image of God, as a bigger, more powerful and charismatic version of themselves.
Then put on a condom too. Or don't have sex, or have surgery, or do any one of 100 things to prevent a pregnancy. Abortion is not justifiable just because contraception failed.
In your view. Other opinions are available.
No. My moral standards are objective. Wrong is wrong, evil is evil, sin is sin.
How do you know this?

God is the judge. I call out behaviors/actions that are sin/morally wrong, but God judges the person. I judge behaviors/actions, not people. God judges behaviors/actions and people.
And your judgement of behaviours and actions is based on your opinion of what God's opinion would be if He bothered to show up and express it.
Didn't you say "Adoption needs to be outlawed because it is a threat to abortion? We need more abortions, not less? I love abortion so we need to outlaw all adoptions?"

Since you apparently cannot tell when I am being facetious--I will tell you right out: I am being facetious in the above. Ha, ha!
H ha. So facetiousness is indistinguishable from lying? Good idea to get your excuses in early.
So---my point was that this does not entail my morality is subjective.
And yet it is, see above.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
That you outsource your moral code to God, even supposing God to be real, doesn't make your morality objective. It just makes it the same as God's. Thigh in practice I suspect that like every other Christian, particularly those who disagree with you on moral matters, that your morality isn't the same as God's at all. Quite the reverse. God's is, in your view, the same as yours. Funny how that happens. You even get Americans declaring that God is American. You don't get Nigerians saying that. Every Christian has their own image of God, as a bigger, more powerful and charismatic version of themselves.
Do not confuse me with Protestant fundamentalists. On these boards---are views on abortion align. It is sort of like--the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing. But when it comes to the actual Christian Faith--me being a Catholic----at best---you and I are on the same plane--at worst----I am seen as worse off than you! As far as they are concerned, you and I are both going directly to Hell when we die, neither one of us is passing go, nor are we collecting $200. They probably would put me in a deeper level of Hell than you too--for being Catholic. I think in the minds of Protestant fundamentalists, being atheist is preferable to being Catholic!

Not all Christians are "The earth is 6,000 years old because the Bible says so" types, nor are all Christians "We can't believe evolution because the Bible says so, fossils are of the devil" types.

Do not confuse me with the Paula White/Kenneth Copeland nuts either.


In your view. Other opinions are available.
You mean like--abortion? That isn't a valid opinion---especially when there are ways of preventing pregnancy.
How do you know this?
Some of it based on natural law. Some by the Bible. Rest assured; however, one need not have a special revelation from God to know that abortion should not be tolerated by any society that claims to be scientifically advanced, educated and enlightened. I mean really----you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that abortion is murder.
And your judgement of behaviors and actions is based on your opinion of what God's opinion would be if He bothered to show up and express it.
Fine. Some of it is. But we are discussing abortion, sir. As I have told you time and time again--you do not need to be religious to believe that abortion is wrong. What do you make of pro-life atheists?
 
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Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Some of it based on natural law.
Please give an example of a "natural law", and prove it exists.
Rest assured; however, one need not have a special revelation from God to know that abortion should not be tolerated by any society that claims to be scientifically advanced, educated and enlightened.
The prove it, objectively.
I mean really----you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that abortion is murder.
Except where it is legal.
Where, by the definition of murder, abortion is not.
As I have told you time and time again--you do not need to be religious to believe that abortion is wrong.
Indeed - there are secular opposers of abortion.
What do you make of pro-life atheists?
Their arguments fail no less than those of theist anti-choicers - they cannot convince pro-choicers that the life of the unborn should trump the right of a pregnant woman not to be pregnant.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Do not confuse me with Protestant fundamentalists. On these boards---are views on abortion align. It is sort of like--the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing. But when it comes to the actual Christian Faith--me being a Catholic----at best---you and I are on the same plane--at worst----I am seen as worse off than you! As far as they are concerned, you and I are both going directly to Hell when we die, neither one of us is passing go, nor are we collecting $200. They probably would put me in a deeper level of Hell than you too--for being Catholic. I think in the minds of Protestant fundamentalists, being atheist is preferable to being Catholic!

Not all Christians are "The earth is 6,000 years old because the Bible says so" types, nor are all Christians "We can't believe evolution because the Bible says so, fossils are of the devil" types.

Do not confuse me with the Paula White/Kenneth Copeland nuts either.
I don't confuse you with anyone, and it is of any comfort, I don't think that you are going to help either. I don't have any truck with the sort of protestants who talk about the Whore of Rome and claim that Catholics are not Christian. I have had a passing acquaintance with both them and militant Catholics. The most significant difference between them is that Catholics kneecap people with a shotgun, while Protestants use a hand drill.
You mean like--abortion? That isn't a valid opinion---especially when there are ways of preventing pregnancy.
In your opinion.
Some of it based on natural law. Some by the Bible. Rest assured; however, one need not have a special revelation from God to know that abortion should not be tolerated by any society that claims to be scientifically advanced, educated and enlightened. I mean really----you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that abortion is murder.
On the contrary. Any country that bans abortion is in my opinion disqualified from being educated or enlightened, or even civilised.
Fine. Some of it is. But we are discussing abortion, sir. As I have told you time and time again--you do not need to be religious to believe that abortion is wrong. What do you make of pro-life atheists?
They are right, insofar as abortion is not a religious issue. Atheists are by definition only certainly right about one thing, the non-existence of gods. Pro-life atheists are as wrong as you are. In my opinion.
 
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romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
The most significant difference between them is that Catholics kneecap people with a shotgun, while Protestants use a hand drill.
Say more about that. What do you mean? Give an example.
On the contrary. Any country that bans abortion is in my opinion disqualified from being educated or enlightened, or even civilized.
You know, I don't get it. Why are abortion supporters so obsessed with abortion? Why do you people act as if the world as we know it is going to end if abortion is restricted or banned?
They are right, insofar as abortion is not a religious issue. Atheists are by definition only certainly right about one thing, the non-existence of gods. Pro-life atheists are as wrong as you are. In my opinion.
My point--which you seem to have missed---is that abortion is NOT solely a religious issue. One does not need a special revelation from God to know that abortion is wrong and should not be tolerated in any society that claims to be advanced, civilized, enlightened, and educated.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
I don't think either of us believes that all abortions are done for convenience.
I am talking about abortion on demand.

You are the one who keeps saying things like "What if the woman doesn't want to be pregnant anymore?" As if---not wanting to be pregnant anymore in itself--somehow justifies abortion.

I am not talking about medically necessary abortions--like the rare cases when a woman's life is threatened. Nor am I talking about rare cases of pregnancy that result from rape or incest.
 
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