Does the morning-after-pill count as abortion?

Temujin

Well-known member
Say more about that. What do you mean? Give an example.
I mean what I said literally. I served four tours in Northern Ireland.
You know, I don't get it. Why are abortion supporters so obsessed with abortion? Why do you people act as if the world as we know it is going to end if abortion is restricted or banned?
Abortion is the topic of this board and this thread. I'm here talking about it. If you think that this is all I do, you are mistaken.
My point--which you seem to have missed---is that abortion is NOT solely a religious issue. One does not need a special revelation from God to know that abortion is wrong and should not be tolerated in any society that claims to be advanced, civilized, enlightened, and educated.
One doesn't need a special revelation from God to know that accessible legal abortion is the mark of a civilised society. What do you think about Christians who are Pro-choice? No, don't tell me. I've got this. "They aren't proper Christians".
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
I mean what I said literally. I served four tours in Northern Ireland.
Sir, I do not know what you mean. Give me an example of what you are talking about.
Abortion is the topic of this board and this thread. I'm here talking about it. If you think that this is all I do, you are mistaken.
I didn't say this is all you do. I said abortion supporters are obsessed with abortion--and I do not understand why.
No, don't tell me. I've got this. "They aren't proper Christians".
They aren't. A "pro-choice" Christian/Catholic is an oxymoron.

If someone said to you "I am Christian but atheist" would you say such a person is a proper Christian? Even you----an atheist---would know better. If someone said to you "I am Christian, but I believe Jesus isn't God but a prophet" even you an atheist---would know better. If someone said to you "I am Christian, but I reject the teachings of Christ" even you an atheist would know better. "I am Christian, but I support abortion" even you an atheist--for as much as you love abortion, ought to know better.

There are certain doctrines that are fundamental to the Christian Faith--that to reject those doctrines---means you aren't Christian----and one needs no PhD in theology to know it.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
No more no less than I can prove that racism is objectively wrong, or that slavery is objectively wrong, or that murder is objectively wrong, or that theft is objectively wrong, or that bigotry is objectively wrong, etc.
Then you can't.

So, you can understand why your claims that they are, are rejected.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Then you can't.

So, you can understand why your claims that they are, are rejected.
Correct---but then don't attempt to claim the moral high ground and act as if you are more enlightened and scientific than thou.

I keep trying to tell you--and you aren't getting it: your skepticism knife undermines YOUR OWN POSITIONS as much as it undermines my own.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Correct---but then don't attempt to claim the moral high ground and act as if you are more enlightened and scientific than thou, as you sit at Star Bucks drinking your Latee with your pinky in the air congratulating yourself on being the wokiest woke person that was ever woke.
I'm on record as being opposed to wokery.

Back to the point - you claimed objectvity, but cannot prove it... on what, then, is your claim based?
I keep trying to tell you--and you aren't getting it: your skepticism knife undermines YOUR OWN POSITIONS as much as it undermines my own.
My position is that morality has never been shown to be objective, and you yourself just stipulated to this.

You validated my position.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
I mean what I said literally. I served four tours in Northern Ireland.

Abortion is the topic of this board and this thread. I'm here talking about it. If you think that this is all I do, you are mistaken.

One doesn't need a special revelation from God to know that accessible legal abortion is the mark of a civilised society. What do you think about Christians who are Pro-choice? No, don't tell me. I've got this. "They aren't proper Christians".
I am curious:

I will use my religion as an example since that is what I know best:

Suppose Catholicism changed teaching on gay marriage, abortion, artificial contraception, women's ordination, and otherwise secularized the Church and brought its teachings into line with what liberals and leftists want. By the way--if this actually ever did happen in reality------I would be joining you in atheism------but suppose it did.

Would you respect Catholicism or not? The reason I am asking this is because there are people within the Catholic Church who think--the way to save religion and attract adherents---is by secularizing the Faith. I do not believe that--as Protestant sects that have done that are dying out. Even if it did attract adherents--what would be the point in my mind? If we have to sell out who we are to attract people----our God is not worth believing in, in my opinion---but---would a more secular leftist Faith attract you as an atheist?
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Suppose Catholicism changed teaching on gay marriage, abortion, artificial contraception, women's ordination, and otherwise secularized the Church and brought its teachings into line with what liberals and leftists want. By the way--if this actually ever did happen in reality------I would be joining you in atheism
?

If your Church changed its teachings, why would you stop believing in the god of your Church?
 

BMS

Well-known member
I don't confuse you with anyone, and it is of any comfort, I don't think that you are going to help either. I don't have any truck with the sort of protestants who talk about the Whore of Rome and claim that Catholics are not Christian. I have had a passing acquaintance with both them and militant Catholics. The most significant difference between them is that Catholics kneecap people with a shotgun, while Protestants use a hand drill.

In your opinion.

On the contrary. Any country that bans abortion is in my opinion disqualified from being educated or enlightened, or even civilised.

They are right, insofar as abortion is not a religious issue. Atheists are by definition only certainly right about one thing, the non-existence of gods. Pro-life atheists are as wrong as you are. In my opinion.
So on the one hand you think societies make up morals and laws but on the other hand they can be wrong.
So in reality you dont actually think societies.make up morals unless they agree with yoir opinion
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
?

If your Church changed its teachings, why would you stop believing in the god of your Church?
Here goes:

The whole point of the Christian Faith is to be a light unto the nations. It isn't the world that is supposed to move the Church, but the Church that is supposed to move the world. A Faith that is right when I am right, a Faith that is right when I agree with it--is no Faith. A Church that is moved by the world--is no Church worth belonging to.

Put another way:

If I want gay marriage, abortion, artificial contraception, charity work, the idea that gender is fluid, and--whatever-----well, I don't need God to have those things now do I? I can be--atheist---and have those things. There is nothing uniquely godlike or religious about them. All they are--is just reflective of the current beliefs of society.

For me--if the Church God founded--is going to be nothing more than a reflection of the whims and trends of pop-culture and pop-science, what is the point of being a Church in the first place? What is the role of the Church? Again, we are nothing more than a---well,---I don't even know what we are at that point. The Faith and the Church in my mind are vacuous. As I said--there isn't much of a point anymore to Faith and God---if all we are going to do is base our Faith on the world.

So I repeat--if the pope ever changes Church teaching on those subjects---I will be joining you in atheism. Again---I do not need Faith to live and believe whatever happens to be in vogue and cool and hip at a given place in time, now do I?
 
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Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Put another way:

If I want gay marriage, abortion, artificial contraception, charity work, the idea that gender is fluid, and--whatever-----well, I don't need God to have those things now do I? I can be--atheist---and have those things. There is nothing uniquely godlike or religious about them.
Being an atheist means not believing that a god exists - why would your Church's altering its stance affect the reasons that you believe your god exists?

"The Church now performs gay marriages... I guess god isn't real, after all..."
?

Really?
For me--if the Church God founded--is going to be nothing more than a reflection of the whims and trends of pop-culture and pop-science, what is the point of being a Church in the first place?
Leaving a Chruch does not equate to atheism.
You might be Chruch-less and still believe in a god.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Being an atheist means not believing that a god exists - why would your Church's altering its stance affect the reasons that you believe your god exists?

"The Church now performs gay marriages... I guess god isn't real, after all..."
?

Really?
Yes, REALLY!!!

Sir, I get for you as an atheist, you think religion and Faith are a joke. Well, they aren't a joke to me. This is serious business. This is about truth.

As I said: if truth is nothing more than whatever happens to be in vogue with pop-culture and pop-science at any given place and time---even if there is a God--you can have Him. God is nothing more than a divine Santa Clause/Tooth Fairy----or---what the heck--celestial teapot--at that point. And such a God--if God exists--is no God---at least not any God worth having or taking seriously. God is just a more powerful version of us in such a case. That isn't God. That is a joke--and a darn right bad one at that.
Leaving a Chruch does not equate to atheism. You might be Chruch-less and still believe in a god.
Whatever.

The point is that functionally I would be atheist, if not atheist in truth.
 
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Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Yes, REALLY.

Sir, I get for you as an atheist, you think religion and Faith are a joke. Well, they aren't a joke to me. This is serious business. This is about truth.
I don't understand - you have some reason/s that you think a god exists, and I don't get how your Church's stance changing would affect those reasons.
As I said: if truth is nothing more than whatever happens to be in vogue with pop-culture and pop-science at any given place and time---even if there is a God--you can have Him. God is nothing more than a divine Santa Clause/Tooth Fairy----or---what the heck--celestial teapot!--at that point. And such a God--if God exists--is no God---at least not any God worth having or taking seriously. God is just a more powerful version of us in such a case. That isn't God. That is a joke.
What if the Chruch changes its stance, and this new stance is contrary to the wishes of a god that exists?

Why is it "god doesn't exist", rather than "god still exists, but the Chruch is now wrong"?
Whatever.
What do you mean "whatever"? This is down to the very definition of the word atheist.

"
I will stop eating pork, and join you in vegetarianism."
"Vegetarians abstain from eating all meat."
"Whatever."
The point is that functionally I would be atheist,
Atheism is defined in terms of function.
It is defined in terms of belief - if a person believes in a god, they are not an atheist, no matter what they do/don't do.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Sir, I do not know what you mean. Give me an example of what you are talking about.
Paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland are religion based. They kept order in their communities by "punishment shootings" or "kneecapping". The IRA and other Catholic paramilitary organisations favoured a hand gun, or in serious cases a shotgun, which is fired at point blank range through these victim's knee. The more psychotic protestants used an electric hand drill for the same purpose. If you want pictures, Google "kneecapping “.
I didn't say this is all you do. I said abortion supporters are obsessed with abortion--and I do not understand why.
They aren't, any more than you are.
They aren't. A "pro-choice" Christian/Catholic is an oxymoron.
An awful lot of oxymorons in Ireland then.Over 66% of the population voted in favour of legal abortion. This a country that's nearly 80% Catholic. They outnumbered the pure morons by 2 to 1. (Incidentally, that's what facetiousness looks like.)
If someone said to you "I am Christian but atheist" would you say such a person is a proper Christian? Even you----an atheist---would know better. If someone said to you "I am Christian, but I believe Jesus isn't God but a prophet" even you an atheist---would know better. If someone said to you "I am Christian, but I reject the teachings of Christ" even you an atheist would know better. "I am Christian, but I support abortion" even you an atheist--for as much as you love abortion, ought to know better.
And yet there are Christians who support the right to abortion. After all, even taken at face value, Christ said nothing about abortion. It isn't mentioned once. Of course, simple human beings have interpreted the Bible as saying various things. Astonishingly these interpretations usually mirror the viewpoints of the interpretor. Which is why I pay no attention to Christians telling me what the Bible teaches. When you can agree amongst yourselves, get back to me.
There are certain doctrines that are fundamental to the Christian Faith--that to reject those doctrines---means you aren't Christian----and one needs no PhD in theology to know it.
Are you saying that abortion, despite not being mentioned once in the Bible, is a salvic issue?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
I am curious:

I will use my religion as an example since that is what I know best:

Suppose Catholicism changed teaching on gay marriage, abortion, artificial contraception, women's ordination, and otherwise secularized the Church and brought its teachings into line with what liberals and leftists want. By the way--if this actually ever did happen in reality------I would be joining you in atheism------but suppose it did.

Would you respect Catholicism or not? The reason I am asking this is because there are people within the Catholic Church who think--the way to save religion and attract adherents---is by secularizing the Faith. I do not believe that--as Protestant sects that have done that are dying out. Even if it did attract adherents--what would be the point in my mind? If we have to sell out who we are to attract people----our God is not worth believing in, in my opinion---but---would a more secular leftist Faith attract you as an atheist?
No. I have taught at a Catholic school. I actually taught Religious Education. (It's a long story). I have a great deal of respect for the individuals I met there. Sincere, devout and very decent people. I have no respect for the faith, or for many of the Church's actions. I could never have much respect for an organisation that sanctified Mother Theresa. As for adopting the policies of the left, the Church has accepted that the earth is not centre of the universe, or even the solar system. It has accepted evolution. It has toyed with married clergy. It has even accepted the existence of predatory paedophile priests. I expect it to go on accepting the inevitable, fifty years behind the times, as it always has done.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yes, REALLY!!!

Sir, I get for you as an atheist, you think religion and Faith are a joke. Well, they aren't a joke to me. This is serious business. This is about truth.

As I said: if truth is nothing more than whatever happens to be in vogue with pop-culture and pop-science at any given place and time---even if there is a God--you can have Him. God is nothing more than a divine Santa Clause/Tooth Fairy----or---what the heck--celestial teapot--at that point. And such a God--if God exists--is no God---at least not any God worth having or taking seriously. God is just a more powerful version of us in such a case. That isn't God. That is a joke--and a darn right bad one at that.

Whatever.

The point is that functionally I would be atheist, if not atheist in truth.
But none of the issues brought up by you have anything to do with atheists or atheism. There are atheist homophobes. There are atheists who find it as difficult to believe that a man can become a woman as that Jesus can become a biscuit. Opposing such things as abortion and homophobia are not an entry requirement for atheism any more than they disbar one from organised religion. Truth is Truth. You are right that fashionable ideas on marriage, gender or anything else do not equal Truth. But then neither do your unfashionable ones. If the only way you can worship your God is to live in the way that your parents were brought up, that's your privilege. It isn't our fault that the world has moved on in the last 70 years.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
I don't understand - you have some reason/s that you think a god exists, and I don't get how your Church's stance changing would affect those reasons.

What if the Chruch changes its stance, and this new stance is contrary to the wishes of a god that exists?

Why is it "god doesn't exist", rather than "god still exists, but the Chruch is now wrong"?

What do you mean "whatever"? This is down to the very definition of the word atheist.

"
I will stop eating pork, and join you in vegetarianism."
"Vegetarians abstain from eating all meat."
"Whatever."

Atheism is defined in terms of function.
It is defined in terms of belief - if a person believes in a god, they are not an atheist, no matter what they do/don't do.
To be fair, i think that this is a much more difficult issue for a Catholic than a Protestant. A Protestant can just up and form a new sect. Look around and you will see thousands of them. For a Catholic, the Church is the custodian of Biblical teaching. Disagreements on moral issues are very difficult to deal with. @romishpopishorganist forgive me if I have misrepresented your faith here.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
No. I have taught at a Catholic school. I actually taught Religious Education. (It's a long story).
Yeah---I assure you--here in the USA, an atheist would not be teaching theology. Then again---in the Pope Francis Church where the only rule is that there are no rules--who knows? (I am being facetious there)

Unless at the time you weren't atheist and only later became an atheist. Then it makes sense why it would be a long story.
As for adopting the policies of the left, the Church has accepted that the earth is not center of the universe, or even the solar system. It has accepted evolution.
I would not call that policies of the left. Those are scientific truths that in the end do not touch upon religious truth or living.

When it comes to moral issues, I think scientists jump to conclusions. Let's use homosexuality as an example. Suppose it is true that there is a biological reason for homosexuality. Maybe there is some gay gene--or take your pick. Science has proven that homosexuality is biological in nature.

From my perspective--that is just fine. But all science has proven is that sexual attraction--to males, females, or both----is biological and beyond our control. It would say nothing about the choice to act on that. For the Catholic Church, our sexual appetites are nothing more than passions. It is our behavior that defines us--not our passions and appetites. Our genetics, passions, etc, do not determine who we are. WE determine who we are through our choices.

But scientists seem to want to jump to conclusions: "Homosexual has a biological explanation, therefore gay marriage is fine for society."
It has toyed with married clergy.
You are scaring me--that you taught theology.

It HAS married clergy. The Eastern Rites have married clergy. It is the Latin West that has celibacy. The Latin West is only one aspect of Catholicism. However, even there, exceptions are made. The RCC has always admitted that celibacy in the Latin West is a discipline that can be changed.
It has even accepted the existence of predatory pedophile priests. I expect it to go on accepting the inevitable, fifty years behind the times, as it always has done.
Yes, and as I said--if in my lifetime--the Church accepts gay marriage, abortion, women's ordination, etc, I will be joining you in atheism. Once I am dead it won't matter.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
But none of the issues brought up by you have anything to do with atheists or atheism. There are atheist homophobes. There are atheists who find it as difficult to believe that a man can become a woman as that Jesus can become a biscuit. Opposing such things as abortion and homophobia are not an entry requirement for atheism any more than they disbar one from organized religion. Truth is Truth. You are right that fashionable ideas on marriage, gender or anything else do not equal Truth. But then neither do your unfashionable ones. If the only way you can worship your God is to live in the way that your parents were brought up, that's your privilege. It isn't our fault that the world has moved on in the last 70 years.
You are missing the point---and----I just don't see how I can explain it any other way.

You are just going to have to miss the point. I am disappointed--as I was really hoping you would get what I am saying.

Who knows...maybe one day it will click and you will understand.
 
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