Does this sound like working your way to Heaven or not? What say you?

Aaron32

Well-known member
The person in this video was in my old ward.
I told him it sounds too much like we're working our way to Heaven (especially when we lump in temple ordinances into the Doctrine of Christ). He disagrees.
I dunno, is it just me? What do you think?

 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
First, before I watch the video, I just want to make it clear that we ARE working our way to heaven. That's what we teach. That's what the Bible teaches. Salvation costs us everything.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Wow. That was truly nauseating. I have no idea healthy steps at the end of his video have I have no idea what it has to do with his opening dialogue. And I disagree with the temple ordinances as being and necessary step to enjoy the presence of God the Father. If that was true then that would mean that the Book of Mormon does not contain the fullness of the Gospel. Because the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about the ordinances of the Temple. The fullness of the Gospel that will get us into heaven incorporates everything from baptism Faith to baptism and the gift of the holy Ghost.

The step that he's really missing is keeping the commandments. After all, we have to have something to repent of and if it wasn't for the commandments we wouldn't know what we need to repent of.

Keeping the commandments is not an easy task. It requires a lot of work.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
First, before I watch the video, I just want to make it clear that we ARE working our way to heaven. That's what we teach. That's what the Bible teaches. Salvation costs us everything.

Um, no.
The Bible is quite clear on this point:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



This is why the early church taught that salvation is NOT by works:

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
First, before I watch the video, I just want to make it clear that we ARE working our way to heaven. That's what we teach. That's what the Bible teaches. Salvation costs us everything.
I have to agree with Theo on this as far as salvation goes.
Past salvation, and into perfection, yeah it requires work, but IMO it's a joyful work, since we keep the commandments out of our love for God.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have to agree with Theo on this as far as salvation goes.
Past salvation, and into perfection, yeah it requires work, but IMO it's a joyful work, since we keep the commandments out of our love for God.

You're coming closer and closer to Biblical Christianity, so congratulations!

Salvation is by faith alone, and is a gift.
Sanctification is the result of joyful works coming from our love for God.

We've held this belief for 2000 years, without the need of the false teachings of the LDS church.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Wow. That was truly nauseating. I have no idea healthy steps at the end of his video have I have no idea what it has to do with his opening dialogue.
I agree.
And I disagree with the temple ordinances as being and necessary step to enjoy the presence of God the Father. If that was true then that would mean that the Book of Mormon does not contain the fullness of the Gospel. Because the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about the ordinances of the Temple. The fullness of the Gospel that will get us into heaven incorporates everything from baptism Faith to baptism and the gift of the holy Ghost.
Exactly.
The step that he's really missing is keeping the commandments. After all, we have to have something to repent of and if it wasn't for the commandments we wouldn't know what we need to repent of.
Good point!
Keeping the commandments is not an easy task. It requires a lot of work.
I personally think it's more of a mental/spiritual work, than anything else. We our have proper perspective on our relationship with God, keeping his commandments are easy.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You're coming closer and closer to Biblical Christianity, so congratulations!
Thanks Theo! It's too bad you don't get to see my discussions with fellow church members on Facebook. You might be surprised. It would certainly be fun to see you there.
Salvation is by faith alone, and is a gift.
Sanctification is the result of joyful works coming from our love for God.
I agree 100%
We've held this belief for 2000 years, without the need of the false teachings of the LDS church.
In terms of understanding salvation, I might agree with you. The understanding is what the church, ordinances, and temples are used for - perfection unto becoming of one heart and one mind. I feel there is gross ignorance by both Mormons and non-Mormons alike on this topic.
 

Richard7

Active member
Um, no.
The Bible is quite clear on this point:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils believe in Christ. In fact, they do more than believe, they know Christ and the apostles.




Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Matthew 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.



Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

1 Timothy 6:18

That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I have to agree with Theo on this as far as salvation goes.
Past salvation, and into perfection, yeah it requires work, but IMO it's a joyful work, since we keep the commandments out of our love for God.
🙄
That is so lame. Make up ur mind, is it work or isn't it? Who cares if u like the work? That doesn't change it from work to a free gift. The video, nauseating as it is, make a valid point.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
1 Timothy 6:18
Interesting way to respond, as I cannot quote what you wrote, but if I may, Theo was addressing the basis of our salvation.
And yes, per your scriptures, people who have faith perform works, but those works do not save us, they are fruits of our conversion.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I personally think it's more of a mental/spiritual work, than anything else. We our have proper perspective on our relationship with God, keeping his commandments are easy.
Interesting thought. It doesn't change one little fact, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and until we die our flesh tends to control the spirit. It is laughable to claim that because one loves the commandments that they will actually keep them.

I'm not excusing our sins because we have no choice. We do. But the fact remains that while we are mortals, we are prone to failures. We get angry, we feel lust, we react to covertness and we blame God for our problems. When we think we are good we are not.

What we need is a redeemer but it only covers those who believe in Christ enough to try to follow him and try his works to do. This salvation is a cycle of failure and repentance in an effort to improve our time in this life. The parable of the talents is an example of what a follower of Christ should be. Given a few talents, our call is to increase them not bury them and that, I believe, is work.
 

Janice Bower

Active member
What LDS call commandments didn't all come from God. And Mormons say you have to earn salvation; it can't be done!


There is only one way provided by the Lord for man to gain salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God and that is by and through the living, personal Jesus Christ, and by knowing and living his commandments. We cannot obtain salvation and eternal life by worshipping fake Christs or by living the doctrines and commandments of men.*
Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign, May, 1977, pp. 26-7


*Referring to non-Mormons Biblical teachings
 
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Janice Bower

Active member
Interesting thought. It doesn't change one little fact, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and until we die our flesh tends to control the spirit. It is laughable to claim that because one loves the commandments that they will actually keep them.

I'm not excusing our sins because we have no choice. We do. But the fact remains that while we are mortals, we are prone to failures. We get angry, we feel lust, we react to covertness and we blame God for our problems. When we think we are good we are not.

What we need is a redeemer but it only covers those who believe in Christ enough to try to follow him and try his works to do. This salvation is a cycle of failure and repentance in an effort to improve our time in this life. The parable of the talents is an example of what a follower of Christ should be. Given a few talents, our call is to increase them not bury them and that, I believe, is work.

Trying my foot! Read your Book of Mormon.

1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

8 And it came to pass that when my father had heard these words he was exceedingly glad, for he knew that I had been blessed of the Lord.

 

Aaron32

Well-known member
What LDS call commandments didn't all come from God. And Mormons say you have to earn salvation; it can't be done!


There is only one way provided by the Lord for man to gain salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God and that is by and through the living, personal Jesus Christ, and by knowing and living his commandments. We cannot obtain salvation and eternal life by worshipping fake Christs or by living the doctrines and commandments of men.*
Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign, May, 1977, pp. 26-7


*Referring to non-Mormons Biblical teachings
I don't see anything about earning salvation in this statement. Are you promoting antinomianism or something?
 

Janice Bower

Active member
“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned
Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p.56


“We are living eternal life, and our position hereafter will be the result of our lives here. Every man will be judged according to his works, and he will receive only that degree of glory that he has earned.(Conference Reports, April 1945, p. 139.)"
The Teachings of George Albert Smith, p.30
 

Janice Bower

Active member
“There is only one objective so far as our Father’s work is concerned, and that is that in the end when we shall have finished our work here on earth, whether after a short space of time or a long, we too shall have overcome the world and have earned the right to that place called the Celestial Kingdom”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, pp.230-231
 

Janice Bower

Active member
Wow. That was truly nauseating. I have no idea healthy steps at the end of his video have I have no idea what it has to do with his opening dialogue. And I disagree with the temple ordinances as being and necessary step to enjoy the presence of God the Father. If that was true then that would mean that the Book of Mormon does not contain the fullness of the Gospel. Because the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about the ordinances of the Temple. The fullness of the Gospel that will get us into heaven incorporates everything from baptism Faith to baptism and the gift of the holy Ghost.

The step that he's really missing is keeping the commandments. After all, we have to have something to repent of and if it wasn't for the commandments we wouldn't know what we need to repent of.

Keeping the commandments is not an easy task. It requires a lot of work.
How can you, as a Mormon, think that ignoring the endowments and the covenants of the temple doesn't matter? Mormons can't be clean without them. I'm shocked. Apparently you haven't been to the temple; have you? Are you a convert to Mormonism?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What LDS call commandments didn't all come from God.
You're entitled to your opinion. It's not like you can prove they didn't come from God. The only one that comes to mind is the Word of Wisdom and unless you have investments in these harmful substances, I really don't see what the problem is. The rest of them come from God. Our critics just switch out the word of God and have God changing his mind. The 10 commandments come from God.
And Mormons say you have to earn salvation; it can't be done!
Oh. It can. God said so. Matt 19:26 "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible". So, I think you're wrong. It can be done, all one needs to do is follow Christ. That is the difference between the damned and the saved.
There is only one way provided by the Lord for man to gain salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God and that is by and through the living, personal Jesus Christ
If you disagree with that statement, then you aren't a Christian.
 
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