Effectual Calling

Ohhhhhh OK....now your saying God is not needed to participate in your salvation?


No, I'm dead on. Then again perhaps I have mispresented your position..as you now seem to be drifting into the position salvation is pretty much you.


Oh, but I have.

Keep in mind anyone can cut and paste scripture out of context. Heck, you claim we do it all the time....and you have the only correct context.

What people like f1tom are saying is that God dresses you up in swimming trunks, flippers, mask, snorkel....and then all you have to do is jump into the water. No pushing allowed
Sorry you continue to misrepresent my position

I stated no such thing

It is not honest to willfully distort the position of another

Why is it you cannot deal with scripture?

Is scripture not your authority

Are you unable to support your view from scripture so you resort to phony analogies?
 
Deal with scripture

Faith is not a work

Romans 4:4–5 (KJV 1900)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Hey..stay on point.

That verse doesn't really deal with the moment of conversion.

But, lets go with this portion....believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly.....has God set you up on the side of the pool with trunks, flippers, mask and snorkel...and all you gotta do now is "believeth on him that justifieth"...and jump in?
 
Sorry you continue to misrepresent my position

I stated no such thing

It is not honest to willfully distort the position of another

Why is it you cannot deal with scripture?

Is scripture not your authority

Are you unable to support your view from scripture so you resort to phony analogies?
f1tom...sorry dude, you're wrong.

The twins salvation was determined prior to being born or had done any good or bad.
 
Sorry it does not say what you imagine
I suppose you're entitled to your opinion.

11 Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12 not by works but by Him who calls,

is God unjust for selections one person over another? You would argue yes.

You would not allow God to pust a person standing on the side of a pool in trunks, flipper, mask and snorkel into the water.
 
I suppose you're entitled to your opinion.

11 Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12 not by works but by Him who calls,

is God unjust for selections one person over another? You would argue yes.

You would not allow God to pust a person standing on the side of a pool in trunks, flipper, mask and snorkel into the water.

Not my opinion scripture

Nothing there mentions election to salvation

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

It the selection of a nation Jacob(Israel) over Esau (Edom)

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.

Esau never served Jacob


The election spoken of here is not a choice for eternal salvation or perdition, but God’s predetermining of the role that individuals and nations would play in this earthly life. Salvation was available for Esau and any of his descendants willing to believe God. However, the land of Canaan, the law, the tabernacle, the temple service, the promises of national blessing were all reserved for Jacob (israel)and his posterity.

Dr. Griffith Thomas: "It should be carefully noted that St. Paul is referring to the seed of Abraham typically and spiritually (cf Galatians.4:29) … The reference is, of course, to Jacob and Esau in their national capacity, and not to any ‘hate’ of Esau while yet unborn … It is therefore no question of personal salvation by absolute decree."

Dr. H.A. Ironside, in his commentary on Romans: "Be it observed that it was not before the children were born, neither had done any good or evil, that God said, ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.’ These words are quoted from the very last book of the Old Testament. We find them in Malachi … Dispensationally, Jacob was loved, Esau hated. There is no reference to the individual as such.................................... This is not salvation. This is service. Let me show you that in Romans 9:12: ‘The elder shall serve the younger."

Malachi 1:1 THE burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: Yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Malachi 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; And they shall call them, The border of wickedness, And, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
Malachi 1:5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.
Malachi 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: If then I be a father, where is mine honour? And if I be a master, where is my fear? Saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
Malachi 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; And ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Malachi 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? Offer it now unto thy governor; Will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 1:9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: This hath been by your means: Will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 1:10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? Neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, Neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My name shall be great among the Gentiles; And in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: For my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 1:12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; And the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
Malachi 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! And ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; And ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; Thus ye brought an offering: Should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
Malachi 1:14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, And voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: For I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, And my name is dreadful among the heathen.

why was Edom (Esau) hated

Obadiah 7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: The men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; They that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: There is none understanding in him.
Obadiah 8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, Even destroy the wise men out of Edom, And understanding out of the mount of Esau?
Obadiah 9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, To the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
Obadiah 10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, And thou shalt be cut off for ever.
Obadiah 11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, In the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, And foreigners entered into his gates, And cast lots upon Jerusalem, Even thou wast as one of them.
Obadiah 12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; Neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; Neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
Obadiah 13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity: Yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, Nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
Obadiah 14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; Neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

and your entire idea of unconditional election collapses at

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Israel was broken off because of unbelief and could be grafted back in if they remain not in unbelief

It was because of their lack of faith they were cuttoff not unconditional election and they could be restored if they did not remain in unbelief
 
LOL...on my.
Is it what scripture says or what you make it say? Considering it's what you make scripture say...then it is your opinion.
The scriptures posted which Calvinists appear unable to answer clearly show the truth

 
God grants gracy and mercy to whomever He chooses. You deny that.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

you don't believe that
 
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

you don't believe that
Who is the "all"????

Are you preaching that very individual person on earth past, present and future will be saved? Are you a universalist considering salvation?

Could the "all" be a reference to those pre-destined? That is they are the ones who will come unto the knowledge of the truth?
 
Who is the "all"????

Are you preaching that very individual person on earth past, present and future will be saved? Are you a universalist considering salvation?

Could the "all" be a reference to those pre-destined? That is they are the ones who will come unto the knowledge of the truth?
Never stated a word about all being saved other than

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

that expressed in God's perfect will

No, no one is unconditionally predestined to salvation

Mercy is not getting what you deserve

that may include an opportunity for repentance

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
 
Never stated a word about all being saved other than

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

that expressed in God's perfect will

No, no one is unconditionally predestined to salvation

Mercy is not getting what you deserve

that may include an opportunity for repentance

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Even "will" can be broken down into nuances...Gods desire, Gods declared will, Gods providence fulfilled.

The "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 can mean several groups of people. The "any" could refer to the choosen sheep, the elect.
 
Even "will" can be broken down into nuances...Gods desire, Gods declared will, Gods providence fulfilled.

The "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 can mean several groups of people. The "any" could refer to the choosen sheep, the elect.
Yes it can

Obviously by the context it refers to any in danger of perishing and in need of repentance

BTW the chosen sheep are not in danger of perishing and there is no need for longsuffering in Calvinism as it teaches irresistible grace
 
Even "will" can be broken down into nuances...Gods desire, Gods declared will, Gods providence fulfilled.

The "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 can mean several groups of people. The "any" could refer to the choosen sheep, the elect.

2 Peter 3 is CLEARLY broken down in to two groups:

1) "they", the "scoffers", "ungodly men", vv. 1-7;
2) "beloved" (v.8), "us-ward" (v.9).

It is this latter group which is under discussion when we get the qualifiers, "not willing any should perish".

It's very easy to understand and follow if you're not blinded by a theology you are forced to defend.
 
2 Peter 3 is CLEARLY broken down in to two groups:

1) "they", the "scoffers", "ungodly men", vv. 1-7;
2) "beloved" (v.8), "us-ward" (v.9).

It is this latter group which is under discussion when we get the qualifiers, "not willing any should perish".

It's very easy to understand and follow if you're not blinded by a theology you are forced to defend.
The beloved are saved they are not in danger of perishing or in need of repentance

2 Peter 1:1 SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
 
Back
Top