Election Fraud

[Crazy Ivan]

Ok, this isn't about conspiracy theories. But let's just stop and think for a moment.

Politics has always been, and always will be, very, VERY dirty business. The dirtiest, if we're being perfectly honest with ourselves. No matter how much we like our favorite politicians, they've all shown one remarkable trait: they'll do just about anything to get elected or re-elected. Don't kid yourself if you think your fave isn't part of this group - they are. Watching members of both political parties do mental and verbal and political gymnastics to gain political power is just breathtaking. And of course it's not just in the United States. It's everywhere. Corruption is RAMPANT in the halls of power.

We know this is true.

And we know that there is not higher level of politics than US presidential elections. Stakes are not higher anywhere else in the world, as the US President is considered the "leader of the free world" and the leader of the most influential and powerful nation ever to exist on the face of the earth. (sorry to our European friends here, but it's true; note, I didn't say "best", I just said "most influential and powerful")

If politics is a dirty (the dirtiest) business, and presidential elections and presidential politics represent the highest level of politics in the world, you'd have to be a colossal fool to think that there aren't thousands of attempts to influence presidential elections - many, many, many of which are underhanded, immoral, unethical, or even downright illegal.

Florida 2000 was a good example. Without rehashing all that, the Republicans wanted to deny votes from Democrat-heavy districts, and Democrats, while crying about making sure "every vote counts" were actively looking to deny ballots from the largely conservative panhandle as well as military ballots. The justifications from both parties were all window dressing; we all know this. Each party was just looking for a way - any way - to win Florida and thus the Presidential election.

So when it comes to Jan 6 and the events of that election, it's pretty clear to me that the Democrats see the Capital mob as being a coup - an attempt to thwart a legitimate election. But Republicans see it as an attempt to stop an illegitimate election, not as a coup.

For me, the events were heinous. But...I understand where people on both sides are coming from. What I *don't* understand is the incredulousness from folks on the left that this in any way could possibly have been a fraudulent election. As if politics isn't a massively dirty business and that no tom foolery could EVER happen in a Presidential election, and that their political party - the most desperate group of people I've ever seen, given their hatred of Trump and desire to get rid of him - couldn't POSSIBLY be engaged in any underhanded shenanigans to get their guy the victory. It's unreal to me to see liberals and Democrats (not necessarily the same group, but allied in this cause anyway) insist that of COURSE the election could not POSSIBLY have been shady at ALL.

By the same token, I don't understand the insistence by folks on the right that this HAD to be "rigged", and yet if somehow Trump had won, it would have all been on the up and up. I mean....come ON.


So question for CARM: Does anyone here *REALLY* think that Presidential elections don't have underhanded shenanigans being pulled by both parties, or even by entities outside the US? (like...WE try to influence foreign elections; why on earth wouldn't Russia or China or Saudi Arabia try to influence OURS?) Is anyone here really that naive?

I'm dying to know.

 

[shnarkle]

Ok, this isn't about conspiracy theories. But let's just stop and think for a moment.

Politics has always been, and always will be, very, VERY dirty business. The dirtiest, if we're being perfectly honest with ourselves. No matter how much we like our favorite politicians, they've all shown one remarkable trait: they'll do just about anything to get elected or re-elected. Don't kid yourself if you think your fave isn't part of this group - they are. Watching members of both political parties do mental and verbal and political gymnastics to gain political power is just breathtaking. And of course it's not just in the United States. It's everywhere. Corruption is RAMPANT in the halls of power.

We know this is true.

And we know that there is not higher level of politics than US presidential elections. Stakes are not higher anywhere else in the world, as the US President is considered the "leader of the free world" and the leader of the most influential and powerful nation ever to exist on the face of the earth. (sorry to our European friends here, but it's true; note, I didn't say "best", I just said "most influential and powerful")

If politics is a dirty (the dirtiest) business, and presidential elections and presidential politics represent the highest level of politics in the world, you'd have to be a colossal fool to think that there aren't thousands of attempts to influence presidential elections - many, many, many of which are underhanded, immoral, unethical, or even downright illegal.

Florida 2000 was a good example. Without rehashing all that, the Republicans wanted to deny votes from Democrat-heavy districts, and Democrats, while crying about making sure "every vote counts" were actively looking to deny ballots from the largely conservative panhandle as well as military ballots. The justifications from both parties were all window dressing; we all know this. Each party was just looking for a way - any way - to win Florida and thus the Presidential election.

So when it comes to Jan 6 and the events of that election, it's pretty clear to me that the Democrats see the Capital mob as being a coup - an attempt to thwart a legitimate election. But Republicans see it as an attempt to stop an illegitimate election, not as a coup.

For me, the events were heinous. But...I understand where people on both sides are coming from. What I *don't* understand is the incredulousness from folks on the left that this in any way could possibly have been a fraudulent election. As if politics isn't a massively dirty business and that no tom foolery could EVER happen in a Presidential election, and that their political party - the most desperate group of people I've ever seen, given their hatred of Trump and desire to get rid of him - couldn't POSSIBLY be engaged in any underhanded shenanigans to get their guy the victory. It's unreal to me to see liberals and Democrats (not necessarily the same group, but allied in this cause anyway) insist that of COURSE the election could not POSSIBLY have been shady at ALL.

By the same token, I don't understand the insistence by folks on the right that this HAD to be "rigged", and yet if somehow Trump had won, it would have all been on the up and up. I mean....come ON.


So question for CARM: Does anyone here *REALLY* think that Presidential elections don't have underhanded shenanigans being pulled by both parties, or even by entities outside the US? (like...WE try to influence foreign elections; why on earth wouldn't Russia or China or Saudi Arabia try to influence OURS?) Is anyone here really that naive?

I'm dying to know.

Shortly after C-SPAN began to air coverage of the house and senate in session, I began to notice that after these people maligned each other on screen, they would then go out for drinks and dinner together. They vacation together in Martha's Vineyard. Their kids go to the same schools. They get rip roaring drunk together at the Bohemian Grove. What you see being televised by the mainstream media is political theater with no other purpose than to divide the country. Divide and conquer is practically fool proof.

 

[vibise]

I object to your "bothsidesism".

Trump had been saying for years that any election he lost had to have been rigged, and he said this well in advance of elections. And so when he lost, why was it surprising he claimed fraud?

You said in your OP

What I *don't* understand is the incredulousness from folks on the left that this in any way could possibly have been a fraudulent election.

The simple explanation for this is that Trump had ample opportunity to present evidence of fraud. There were 60+ courtcases and multiple recounts and audits in key states. Nothing remotely was found. All of Trump's advisors and even Bill Barr said there was no fraud on a significant scale. A few people (maybe 6) were prosecuted for voting illegally.
So despite the great opportunity your side had to find evidence and present a case, you failed. So why is it hard to acknowledge that there was no there there?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I object to your "bothsidesism".

I don't care.

Trump had been saying for years that any election he lost had to have been rigged, and he said this well in advance of elections. And so when he lost, why was it surprising he claimed fraud?

You said in your OP



The simple explanation for this is that Trump had ample opportunity to present evidence of fraud. There were 60+ courtcases and multiple recounts and audits in key states. Nothing remotely was found. All of Trump's advisors and even Bill Barr said there was no fraud on a significant scale. A few people (maybe 6) were prosecuted for voting illegally.
So despite the great opportunity your side had to find evidence and present a case, you failed. So why is it hard to acknowledge that there was no there there?

Politics is an incredibly dirty business. The dirtiest really. Do you REALLY think that the Democrats - so desperate to get rid of the most evil guy in the world, Donald Trump - just sat there and hoped their clean, hard work would pay off in a victory? Do you REALLY think that the left was clean as a whistle in the 2020, or any other, Presidential election?

REALLY?

 

[glenlogie]

I object to your "bothsidesism".

Trump had been saying for years that any election he lost had to have been rigged, and he said this well in advance of elections. And so when he lost, why was it surprising he claimed fraud?

You said in your OP



The simple explanation for this is that Trump had ample opportunity to present evidence of fraud. There were 60+ courtcases and multiple recounts and audits in key states. Nothing remotely was found. All of Trump's advisors and even Bill Barr said there was no fraud on a significant scale. A few people (maybe 6) were prosecuted for voting illegally.
So despite the great opportunity your side had to find evidence and present a case, you failed. So why is it hard to acknowledge that there was no there there?

Look who is implying that democrats are as innocent as the wind driven snow. Again

 

[vibise]

I don't care.



Politics is an incredibly dirty business. The dirtiest really. Do you REALLY think that the Democrats - so desperate to get rid of the most evil guy in the world, Donald Trump - just sat there and hoped their clean, hard work would pay off in a victory? Do you REALLY think that the left was clean as a whistle in the 2020, or any other, Presidential election?

REALLY?

Yes, really.

There is no evidence to the contrary, and from where I sit, it is not surprising that Trump lost by 7 million votes. If there was cheating involved, I think it would have been to bump up Trump's vote totals.

Just because you have suspicions does not mean those suspicions are real.
Your side made a major effort to support this Big Lie, and that effort was successful in that they were able to convince people like you, even while failing to produce any evidence whatsoever.

 

[glenlogie]

Yes, really.

There is no evidence to the contrary, and from where I sit, it is not surprising that Trump lost by 7 million votes. If there was cheating involved, I think it would have been to bump up Trump's vote totals.

Just because you have suspicions does not mean those suspicions are real.
Your side made a major effort to support this Big Lie, and that effort was successful in that they were able to convince people like you, even while failing to produce any evidence whatsoever.

Democrats never ever do anything wrong.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

No really. Forget evidence for a moment. You honestly think that in a world where politics by it’s very nature is unbelievably dirty, you think that your side plays it totally fair and square, totally on the up and up?

Holy crow you are naive beyond my wildest imagination. There’s never been a political group in human history that hasn’t played politics the dirty way. Never. LOL

 

[vibise]

No really. Forget evidence for a moment. You honestly think that in a world where politics by it’s very nature is unbelievably dirty, you think that your side plays it totally fair and square, totally on the up and up?

Holy crow you are naive beyond my wildest imagination. There’s never been a political group in human history that hasn’t played politics the dirty way. Never. LOL

You are asking a scientist to forget evidence?

Ivan, you are normally a thoughtful poster who stands on principle, but your position here makes no sense.

At what point do you abandon the idea that the election was stolen after there have been many investigations over almost 2 years that failed to find even a suggestion of large scale fraud? Trump lost the popular vote in both elections by a lot and is widely despised. Audits and recounts confirm the original results. Trump's lawyers could not present credible evidence in court.

Your argument has devolved to the insistence that all politics must be "unbelievably dirty" and then blaming my side for results you don't like when Republicans were in charge of the elections in those key states.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

You are asking a scientist to forget evidence?

I'm asking you if you agree that:

(a) Politics is, and always has been, a very dirty game (like...read the accounts of Roman politics...holy cow it's corrupt)
(b) US Presidential politics are the highest stakes politics in the world

Do you agree with those two claims?

Ivan, you are normally a thoughtful poster who stands on principle, but your position here makes no sense.

It makes so much sense, it's hard for me to believe you don't agree.

At what point do you abandon the idea that the election was stolen after there have been many investigations over almost 2 years that failed to find even a suggestion of large scale fraud? Trump lost the popular vote in both elections by a lot and is widely despised. Audits and recounts confirm the original results. Trump's lawyers could not present credible evidence in court.

Your argument has devolved to the insistence that all politics must be "unbelievably dirty" and then blaming my side for results you don't like when Republicans were in charge of the elections in those key states.

Politics IS dirty. Like...it's always been dirty business. Always. I've seen it on the smallest, local level. I've seen it on the state level. And of course it exists even more so the higher up you go, when the stakes are even bigger, on a national level.

I'm asking you if you agree that politics is dirty and if you agree that US Presidential politics is the highest stakes political game there is. Do you agree with those claims or not?

 

[shnarkle]

US Presidential politics is the highest stakes political game there is. Do you agree with those claims or not?

The political stakes aren't the highest stakes. The technocracy is providing the highest stakes which are rendering the whole political process null and void. The narrative is that politics is just as you're pointing out which is the best reason to abandon it altogether in favor of the technocracy which is already fixing the problems created by corrupt politics.

These new technologies are in bed with the sciences which are also seeking power over politics as well which can be seen in the unquestioned authority the medical establishment carries by mandating lockdowns, mask wearing and experimental vaccines created through these new technologies.

 

[vibise]

I'm asking you if you agree that:

(a) Politics is, and always has been, a very dirty game (like...read the accounts of Roman politics...holy cow it's corrupt)
(b) US Presidential politics are the highest stakes politics in the world

Do you agree with those two claims?



It makes so much sense, it's hard for me to believe you don't agree.



Politics IS dirty. Like...it's always been dirty business. Always. I've seen it on the smallest, local level. I've seen it on the state level. And of course it exists even more so the higher up you go, when the stakes are even bigger, on a national level.

I'm asking you if you agree that politics is dirty and if you agree that US Presidential politics is the highest stakes political game there is. Do you agree with those claims or not?

Yes I agree that politics can be dirty (as can organized religion), and that US Presidential politics is the highest stakes.

However, you are arguing about a specific election, an election that occurred in the real world. So there should be real world evidence that that election was rigged. Investigations were done and found nothing. There is not even a logical hypothesis of cheating worth pursuing at this point. To continue to rail about this particular election makes no sense. Do you really think that Trump won?

However, I do agree that in this context there has been successful dirty business on a grand scale - the RW noise machine has successfully convinced even people like you that the 2020 election was tainted, against all evidence. To the point that people were riled up enough to break into the Capitol to stop the certification of that election. How dirty is that!

 

[vibise]

The political stakes aren't the highest stakes. The technocracy is providing the highest stakes which are rendering the whole political process null and void. The narrative is that politics is just as you're pointing out which is the best reason to abandon it altogether in favor of the technocracy which is already fixing the problems created by corrupt politics.

These new technologies are in bed with the sciences which are also seeking power over politics as well which can be seen in the unquestioned authority the medical establishment carries by mandating lockdowns, mask wearing and experimental vaccines created through these new technologies.

The whole point of science is discovery and the adaptation of new discoveries for new, useful technologies. In my lifetime those new technologies produced microwaves, digital cameras, men on the moon, cell phones, new pharmaceuticals, mRNA vaccines.

Are you saying all scientific exploration and progress should be shut down?

 

[glenlogie]

The whole point of science is discovery and the adaptation of new discoveries for new, useful technologies. In my lifetime those new technologies produced microwaves, digital cameras, men on the moon, cell phones, new pharmaceuticals, mRNA vaccines.

Are you saying all scientific exploration and progress should be shut down?

Look who is again saying that our only options are over extreme or the other . You appear to be saying that is we want the new technologies we also have to accept politics control by big brother.

 

[glenlogie]

Yes I agree that politics can be dirty (as can organized religion), and that US Presidential politics is the highest stakes.

However, you are arguing about a specific election, an election that occurred in the real world. So there should be real world evidence that that election was rigged. Investigations were done and found nothing. There is not even a logical hypothesis of cheating worth pursuing at this point. To continue to rail about this particular election makes no sense. Do you really think that Trump won?

However, I do agree that in this context there has been successful dirty business on a grand scale - the RW noise machine has successfully convinced even people like you that the 2020 election was tainted, against all evidence. To the point that people were riled up enough to break into the Capitol to stop the certification of that election. How dirty is that!

And democrats never ever lie.

 

[vibise]

Look who is again saying that our only options are over extreme or the other . You appear to be saying that is we want the new technologies we also have to accept politics control by big brother.

The govt has the responsibility to protect the general welfare, and some technologies might benefit the general welfare, like new medicines, while others might be harmful, like smoking or ever more powerful weapons.

 

[glenlogie]

The govt has the responsibility to protect the general welfare, and some technologies might benefit the general welfare, like new medicines, while others might be harmful, like smoking or ever more powerful weapons.

So you believe that the public is so stupid that they need big brother to tell them what they can do. Again you show your condensending elitist attitude.

 

[vibise]

So you believe that the public is so stupid that they need big brother to tell them what they can do. Again you show your condensending elitist attitude.

People did not stop smoking in public places when politely asked, so the govt had to take action. Similarly, laws were required for get people to wear seat belts, and childhood vaccination rates went up when required for school enrollment.

And if people don't need big brother to tell them what they can do, how do you explain all those anti-abortion laws? Why not just ask women politely not to get abortions? Seems you are fine using big brother to get people to do things YOU want.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Yes I agree that politics can be dirty (as can organized religion), and that US Presidential politics is the highest stakes.

Ok so what makes you think that, in the dirtiest game imaginable - politics - with the highest stakes possible, that suddenly one side, perhaps more desperate than any side has ever been in history, to get rid of their most hated opponent ever, just decided to play everything on the up and up?

Do you REALLY think, given your acceptance of those two premises (three really, the third being the left's hatred of Trump that dwarfs any political hatred I've ever seen in my lifetime), that the Democrats would have just sat back and done nothing untoward?

REALLY? Do you HONESTLY believe that, in your heart of hearts?

However, you are arguing about a specific election, an election that occurred in the real world. So there should be real world evidence that that election was rigged. Investigations were done and found nothing. There is not even a logical hypothesis of cheating worth pursuing at this point. To continue to rail about this particular election makes no sense. Do you really think that Trump won?

However, I do agree that in this context there has been successful dirty business on a grand scale - the RW noise machine has successfully convinced even people like you that the 2020 election was tainted, against all evidence. To the point that people were riled up enough to break into the Capitol to stop the certification of that election. How dirty is that!

 

[glenlogie]

People did not stop smoking in public places when politely asked, so the govt had to take action. Similarly, laws were required for get people to wear seat belts, and childhood vaccination rates went up when required for school enrollment.

And if people don't need big brother to tell them what they can do, how do you explain all those anti-abortion laws? Why not just ask women politely not to get abortions?

Abortion involves two people.

And you reinforce your condensending attitude.