Election

[Carbon]

The purpose of elect is the glorification of God. It's not to add glory to the already perfect God, but to reveal His glorious perfections which manifest themselves in the work of redemption to angels and men, in order that in reflecting upon them felicity may be experienced.
It's purpose is, by glorifying and praising Him, to end with all things in Him in whom all things must end, and thus to afford Him all honor and glory.
The purpose is to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe- when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thess 1.
It is to the glory of His grace - to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1.
In reference to this the apostle claims: For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Rom 11:36.

Brakel.


Scripture teaches quite clearly that election pertains to specific individuals, even those who are reprobate.
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. John 10.
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. Rev 17:8.

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1.


Predestination consists of two parts. Election and reprobation.

Predestination is eternal, a divine decree, and is immutable.
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8.

 

[TibiasDad]

The purpose of elect is the glorification of God. It's not to add glory to the already perfect God, but to reveal His glorious perfections which manifest themselves in the work of redemption to angels and men, in order that in reflecting upon them felicity may be experienced.
It's purpose is, by glorifying and praising Him, to end with all things in Him in whom all things must end, and thus to afford Him all honor and glory.
The purpose is to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe- when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thess 1.
It is to the glory of His grace - to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1.
In reference to this the apostle claims: For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Rom 11:36.

Brakel.

You have a lot of ground to cover in this OP, Carbon, but for now let me address this premise than you've laid as a foundational cornerstone of purpose and motivation to create and then elect both those who will be saved, and those who will not be.

My first, and primary objection to this line of argument is this: Can a God that who wants to create such a creation do so and maintain his Aseity?

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You have a lot of ground to cover in this OP, Carbon, but for now let me address this premise than you've laid as a foundational cornerstone of purpose and motivation to create and then elect both those who will be saved, and those who will not be.

My first, and primary objection to this line of argument is this: Can a God that who wants to create such a creation do so and maintain his Aseity?

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

Doug

It says He is God ! Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

 

[ReverendRV]

You have a lot of ground to cover in this OP, Carbon, but for now let me address this premise than you've laid as a foundational cornerstone of purpose and motivation to create and then elect both those who will be saved, and those who will not be.

My first, and primary objection to this line of argument is this: Can a God that who wants to create such a creation do so and maintain his Aseity?

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

Doug

So you wonder if God Glorifies himself outside of himself, when he could just Glorify himself without his Creation; his Aseity is in question?

Just for clarification...

 

[PeanutGallery]

It says He is God ! Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Yes, God is pleased to save those who believe.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Reformedguy]

Yes, God is pleased to save those who believe.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And belief is something granted by God. Belief is a means to a end.

 

[PeanutGallery]

And belief is something granted by God. Belief is a means to a end.

Are you equating 'granted' with 'meticulous determination'?

 

[Reformedguy]

Yes. Does grant something that He has not determined? Is what He grants arbitrary?

 

[guest1]

Are you equating 'granted' with 'meticulous determination'?

Did the Father determine the cross and Jesus persecution from His enemies ? yes or no
Did God determine Josephs persecution with his brothers selling him into slavery ? yes or no

 

[Reformedguy]

Did the Father determine the cross and Jesus persecution from His enemies ? yes or no
Did God determine Josephs persecution with his brothers selling him into slavery ? yes or no

Yup

 

[guest1]

Are you equating 'granted' with 'meticulous determination'?

Jude 1:4
"For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." -

1 Peter 2:8
"and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."

Do I personally like those verses ? No

But who am I to answer back to God ?

His word above says these sinful acts were predetermined by Him, designated for condemnation and to stumble/disobey the word.

But guess what Scripture says it, I believe it and leave my emotions out of it because Gods ways and thoughts are so much higher than mine as scripture says as the heavens are above the earth. Since God is Righteous and Holy that makes His Judgments the same. So who am I to question God and His ways ?

But since you do not like these verses you make emotional excuses and deny the TRUTH in them for your doctrine.

I do not like those verses but its not about what I like or don't like its about truth. And I accept ALL of Gods truth in His word whether or not I personally agree with it. Its called being objective and not bias but open-minded. I don't have to understand Gods predestination and who He chooses to save that is up to Him and in so many places declares that is what He did before creation. This is His Creation governed by His rules and ways not mans. He is in control. Man hates Gods control over His creation.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Reformedguy]

Jude 1:4
"For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." -

1 Peter 2:8
"and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."

 

[guest1]

I added some personal thoughts to the post

 

[PeanutGallery]

I added some personal thoughts to the post

Right; your personal thoughts. You are thinking of equating 'granted' with God's 'determinate counsel and foreknowledge' of offering his Son for the sins of the world; then, further thinking, that that translates to meticulous determination of every man's thoughts and actions.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Reformedguy]

Right; your personal thoughts. You are thinking of equating 'granted' with God's 'determinate counsel and foreknowledge' of offering his Son for the sins of the world; then, further thinking, that that translates to meticulous determination of every man's thoughts and actions.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Has God determined to grant belief??

 

[guest1]

Right; your personal thoughts. You are thinking of equating 'granted' with God's 'determinate counsel and foreknowledge' of offering his Son for the sins of the world; then, further thinking, that that translates to meticulous determination of every man's thoughts and actions.

and likewise those are your humanistic thoughts not Gods thoughts.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[guest1]

Has God determined to grant belief??

I'll get the popcorn started

 

[guest1]

Has God determined to grant belief??

Gods word declares that to be the truth !

1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:14
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, God is pleased to save those who believe.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves whosoever He wills, then causes them to believe. A lost man cant believe !

 

[TibiasDad]

So you wonder if God Glorifies himself outside of himself, when he could just Glorify himself without his Creation; his Aseity is in question?

Just for clarification...

The two prongs of the fork are either God needs glory outside of himself, thus he created the elect and the reprobate, or, if he didn't need it, he simply wanted to do so.

Self-sufficiency, part of the Aesity of God, means he cannot "need" anything outside of himself. This leaves that God wanted to show the fullness of his capacity by Election/reprobation, which in my mind, runs contrary to his character.


Doug