Election

Sethproton

Well-known member
Right, so belief is the basis of His choice. There we go. God choose those Who chose Him. That violates God's aseity.
Doesn't aseity mean self-existent? How does this choice violate God's self-existence?
Or is there some special theological definition of aseity?
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
Where does the BIBLE (not you) say "belief is the responsibility of man to exercise".

And what do you mean by "responsibility"?
And what do you mean by "exercise"?

You see, God simply GAVE me "faith" (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7). And since He gave me faith, I necessarily believe.

There was nothing for me to "exercise".
My faith didn't come with with an "on/off" switch, just like my heart didn't come with an "on/off" switch.

My faith came already "powered" on, and so I believe.



You don't seem to understand what "clearly" means.
But here's a hint... If you have to TELL us that "it is CLEARLY what God has chosen", then it probably ISN'T "clear". Because if it was, you wouldn't have to point it out, would you?
that is an odd part of his statement that you want to pull out and dissect, instead of the actual point of his post. Take out the word "clearly" and read what he wrote.
But as far as clearly goes, men are notorious for not being able to find something their wife wants despite it being clearly displayed where they walked by.
So sometimes what is clear to one is hidden from another. Tibias sees it clearly, you don't see it at all
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
that is an odd part of his statement that you want to pull out and dissect, instead of the actual point of his post. Take out the word "clearly" and read what he wrote.

I did. (I'm quite skilled that way).

But as far as clearly goes, men are notorious for not being able to find something their wife wants despite it being clearly displayed where they walked by.

Well, all that does is tell us about you, not about men or husbands in general.
So it's 100% irrelevant.

So sometimes what is clear to one is hidden from another.

Um, no.
If it's not "clear" in general, then "clear" is the wrong word.

Tibias sees it clearly, you don't see it at all

Okay, Seth... Let me show the world the stupid games you're playing, by asserting this correct and accurate statement:

"Calvinism is clearly taught in the Bible. Many of us see it clearly. You don't see it at all."

I'm glad we agree that Calvinism is "clearly" taught in the Bible! 🤣 🤣 🤣
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Belief is the necessary action before receiving eternal life. Belief is the responsibility of man to exercise.
Aesity being violated is saying God “needs” man to accomplish something; that is not what happens! Man having a part, a critical role in the process is not necessary for God to save, but it is clearly what God has chosen to be. That God chooses that man must believe does not mean that it was necessary for it to be take way!

Doug
Gift of Salvation isnt a response of God for a mans act of responsibility, or obedience. Its a Gift of Mercy based on Christs obedience and responsibility. How can a dead person exercise any act that God rewards with Eternal Life ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Belief is the necessary action before receiving eternal life. Belief is the responsibility of man to exercise.
Aesity being violated is saying God “needs” man to accomplish something; that is not what happens! Man having a part, a critical role in the process is not necessary for God to save, but it is clearly what God has chosen to be. That God chooses that man must believe does not mean that it was necessary for it to be take way!

Doug
Theres no need for Grace and Mercy in your scheme of things, if Salvation is the result of mans act of responsibility or obedience, to say such makes God obligated to save them, its a matter of wage owed. Salvation/ Eternal life is not a wage paid, or a reward, its not Gods reaction to mans responsible actions. Rom 4:4

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Gift of Salvation isnt a response of God for a mans act of responsibility, or obedience. Its a Gift of Mercy based on Christs obedience and responsibility. How can a dead person exercise any act that God rewards with Eternal Life ?
Would you teach that you can have the gift of salvation, before you are in Christ?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Where does the BIBLE (not you) say "belief is the responsibility of man to exercise".
Well Acts 16:31 for one. For another, pisteuó is almost universally in the active voice making it a human action (eg, John 3:16), and lastly, if we are held culpable for our belief or lack thereof (Jn 3:18), it is necessarily our responsibility.
And what do you mean by "responsibility"?
And what do you mean by "exercise"?
I would suppose the same thing you mean by it!
There was nothing for me to "exercise".
My faith didn't come with with an "on/off" switch, just like my heart didn't come with an "on/off" switch.
Then why are we commanded to believe (Πίστευσον, Aorist, Imperative, Active) in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved in Acts 16:31?
(Eph. 2:8-9,
The object of "gift" is not specifically faith, as it could be applied to all three objects, grace, saved/salvation, and faith, but the critical theme is of the verse is how we are saved; salvation is not of ourselves, not by works lest anyone should boast. The gift that is given is salvation by grace through faith. My trust and obedience is not something that needs to be given, for we have had it from creation. It is our responsibility to exercise these things and we are culpable for what we do with them.

Phil. 1:29,

χαρίζομαι means "given graciously as a favor" of/by God. (BGAD). In fact, one the references cited is Phil 1:29, but the example they cite is "you have (graciously) been granted the privilege of suffering for Christ". So this would mean that we have been granted the privilege of believing in Christ if we apply the same definition and logic given by BGAD.

Rom. 12:3,

Faith is not saving faith, but the belief in the spiritual gifts that God has given us to exercise. God gives us differing gifts of service, and grows/matures our faith in accordance with those gifts.

2 Pet. 1:1,

While this may rightly be taken as you would assert, it is not irrefutably so. Indeed, most commentators admit that faith could either be taken as an objective faith, principles of belief, such as Jude 1:3, or as a subjective faith, such as saving faith. The majority side with the latter, but but it is a subjective judgement of the reader as to interpretation, for Peter is ambiguous as to his specific intent. So this is not a critically conclusive passage regarding your assertions.



1 Cor. 4:7).

I think you should mind what was said in verse 6, and " don't go beyond what is written". This is a general principle that all of us are equal in that we have all received grace from God, and that grace is why we are all saved, and not because anyone is better than another. The lesson is about pride, not faith. We have all been given salvation even though we all are inescapably unworthy of being saved. So stop "puffing yourself up" by aligning yourself with Paul or Apollos. Again, we are granted the privilege of believing and suffering, but we are not given belief and suffering.
You don't seem to understand what "clearly" means.
But here's a hint... If you have to TELL us that "it is CLEARLY what God has chosen", then it probably ISN'T "clear". Because if it was, you wouldn't have to point it out, would you

So, let me get this straight, it is not clear in scripture (eg, John 3:16-18) that man must believe to be saved? And if it is clear in scripture that man must believe to be saved, and that the scriptures are inspired by God, then is it not clear that God has necessarily chosen this to be the truth of Scripture? It is as clear as the nose or eyes or mouth on your face!


Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Well Acts 16:31 for one.

Apparently you've never read Acts 16:31, because it says no such thing.

For another, pisteuó is almost universally in the active voice making it a human action (eg, John 3:16),

And that's relevant...... how?

and lastly, if we are held culpable for our belief or lack thereof (Jn 3:18),

That's not what John 3:18 says...

it is necessarily our responsibility.

That's not a Biblical answer.
It's an unBiblical ASSUMPTION.

I would suppose the same thing you mean by it!

Yeah, I didn't think you'd be willing to answer.

Then why are we commanded to believe (Πίστευσον, Aorist, Imperative, Active) in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved in Acts 16:31?

I asked you to prove your false claims from Scripture.
Asking leading questions which you can't show Scriptural answers for, is NOT proving your false claims from Scripture.

The object of "gift" is not specifically faith, as it could be applied to all three objects, grace, saved/salvation, and faith, but the critical theme is of the verse is how we are saved; salvation is not of ourselves, not by works lest anyone should boast. The gift that is given is salvation by grace through faith.

... which necessarily INCLUDES faith.
So thank you for proving I was right.

My trust and obedience is not something that needs to be given, for we have had it from creation. It is our responsibility to exercise these things and we are culpable for what we do with them.

So you claim, with an unBiblical answer.
Yet Scripture teaches our faith IS given to us.

I think (no, I KNOW) I will choose what God says over your unreliable opinion.

χαρίζομαι means "given graciously as a favor" of/by God. (BGAD). In fact, one the references cited is Phil 1:29, but the example they cite is "you have (graciously) been granted the privilege of suffering for Christ". So this would mean that we have been granted the privilege of believing in Christ if we apply the same definition and logic given by BGAD.

Um, okay.....?
So again, thank you for admitting that I'm right when I said that Phil. 1:29 also teaches the faith is given as a gift, even as a "gracious" gift.

Faith is not saving faith, but the belief in the spiritual gifts that God has given us to exercise.

Thank you for unreliable opinion of Rom. 12:3.
Since it is nothing but your opinion, I will rightly throw it in the trash.

While this may rightly be taken as you would assert, it is not irrefutably so. Indeed, most commentators admit that faith could either be taken as an objective faith, principles of belief, such as Jude 1:3, or as a subjective faith, such as saving faith. The majority side with the latter, but but it is a subjective judgement of the reader as to interpretation, for Peter is ambiguous as to his specific intent. So this is not a critically conclusive passage regarding your assertions.

All you're doing is making excuses for why you reject to simply accept the text for what it says. Based on your unwillingness to accept the obvious, I'm beginning to better understand how Mormons can deny monotheism, and how JW's can deny the deity of Christ, despite the plethora of Scriptural support for all three teachings.

I think you should mind what was said in verse 6, and " don't go beyond what is written". This is a general principle that all of us are equal in that we have all received grace from God, and that grace is why we are all saved, and not because anyone is better than another. The lesson is about pride, not faith. We have all been given salvation even though we all are inescapably unworthy of being saved. So stop "puffing yourself up" by aligning yourself with Paul or Apollos. Again, we are granted the privilege of believing and suffering, but we are not given belief and suffering.

Lots of verbal diarrhea to try to justify rejecting Scripture.

So, let me get this straight, it is not clear in scripture (eg, John 3:16-18) that man must believe to be saved?

Why are you moving the goalposts?!

We were SUPPOSED to be discussing the Scripture that God chose "us" (ie. the elect), and you CHANGED that to "God chose HOW we would be saved", and I asked you to support your false claim from Scripture.

We weren't discussing John 3 at all, we were discussing Eph. 1.

And if it is clear in scripture that man must believe to be saved, and that the scriptures are inspired by God, then is it not clear that God has necessarily chosen this to be the truth of Scripture?

But Eph. 1 is teaching MORE than that.
That's why you RAN AWAY from Eph. 1, isn't it?

It is as clear as the nose or eyes or mouth on your face!

Thank you for the insult, all the while you continue to run away from Eph. 1, not to mention all of the "faith is a gift" passages.
 

John t

Super Member
don't follow your argument based what I asked. I did not have a point I have a question

What words would most accurately describe your contradicting yourself here?

Sethproton said:

And your refusal to answer a simple direct question in your own words gives the appearance that you have no answer.

You see, first you say that you DID post a question,:

Sethproton said:

And your refusal to answer a simple direct question in your own words gives the appearance that you have no answer.
Page 23 Post #456








3 456
You can't have it both ways, Seth. do you think that the proverb about a double-minded man is accurate in this case?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
What words would most accurately describe your contradicting yourself here?



You see, first you say that you DID post a question,:


Page 23 Post #456








3 456
You can't have it both ways, Seth. do you think that the proverb about a double-minded man is accurate in this case?
Not sure what you are on about? Did you have a question of point about the topic?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
td

Well Acts 16:31 for one.
No it doesnt say man is responsible to do that to get saved.

pisteuó is almost universally in the active voice making it a human action

In Acts 16:31 believe its an imperative but not in Jn 3:16

Now about Acts 16:31, if you teach that one gets saved by obeying an imperative, thats legalism, work salvation, law keepig salvation and not gace.

Not only that, the unregenerate, person in the flesh cannot obey God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
Belief is the necessary action before receiving eternal life. Belief is the responsibility of man to exercise.
Aesity being violated is saying God “needs” man to accomplish something; that is not what happens! Man having a part, a critical role in the process is not necessary for God to save, but it is clearly what God has chosen to be. That God chooses that man must believe does not mean that it was necessary for it to be take way!

Doug
Right, so God's choice is based upon yours.

God will not save you unless you aqueous to His request. Hence the saving God does is dependent on the will of man. Something outside of Himself. Man decides the number who are to be saved. That violates God's aseity
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Right, so God's choice is based upon yours.

God will not save you unless you aqueous to His request. Hence the saving God does is dependent on the will of man. Something outside of Himself. Man decides the number who are to be saved. That violates God's aseity
No, it does not because it is Gods sovereign choice that it be that way. God doesn't need it to be that way, he wants it to be that way!

Doug
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No, it does not because it is Gods sovereign choice that it be that way. God doesn't need it to be that way, he wants it to be that way!

Doug
None the less the efficacy of the cross is dependent on the will of man. Something outside of God. Therefore it violates your own definition of aseity. It also poses problems for God's foreknowledge and omniscience
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Apparently you've never read Acts 16:31, because it says no such thing.



And that's relevant...... how?



That's not what John 3:18 says...



That's not a Biblical answer.
It's an unBiblical ASSUMPTION.



Yeah, I didn't think you'd be willing to answer.



I asked you to prove your false claims from Scripture.
Asking leading questions which you can't show Scriptural answers for, is NOT proving your false claims from Scripture.



... which necessarily INCLUDES faith.
So thank you for proving I was right.



So you claim, with an unBiblical answer.
Yet Scripture teaches our faith IS given to us.

I think (no, I KNOW) I will choose what God says over your unreliable opinion.



Um, okay.....?
So again, thank you for admitting that I'm right when I said that Phil. 1:29 also teaches the faith is given as a gift, even as a "gracious" gift.



Thank you for unreliable opinion of Rom. 12:3.
Since it is nothing but your opinion, I will rightly throw it in the trash.



All you're doing is making excuses for why you reject to simply accept the text for what it says. Based on your unwillingness to accept the obvious, I'm beginning to better understand how Mormons can deny monotheism, and how JW's can deny the deity of Christ, despite the plethora of Scriptural support for all three teachings.



Lots of verbal diarrhea to try to justify rejecting Scripture.



Why are you moving the goalposts?!

We were SUPPOSED to be discussing the Scripture that God chose "us" (ie. the elect), and you CHANGED that to "God chose HOW we would be saved", and I asked you to support your false claim from Scripture.

We weren't discussing John 3 at all, we were discussing Eph. 1.



But Eph. 1 is teaching MORE than that.
That's why you RAN AWAY from Eph. 1, isn't it?



Thank you for the insult, all the while you continue to run away from Eph. 1, not to mention all of the "faith is a gift" passages.
The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face to shine upon you, be gracious unto you, the Lord turn his face toward you, and give you peace.

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
None the less the efficacy of the cross is dependent on the will of man. Something outside of God. Therefore it violates your own definition of aseity. It also poses problems for God's foreknowledge and omniscience
No, it doesn't. God is reconciled to the world regardless of whether we are reconciled to him. It is because he is reconciled that we have the ministry of reconciliation and preach "Be reconciled to God!" (2 Cor 5:20)


Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
td


No it doesnt say man is responsible to do that to get saved.



In Acts 16:31 believe its an imperative but not in Jn 3:16

Now about Acts 16:31, if you teach that one gets saved by obeying an imperative, thats legalism, work salvation, law keepig salvation and not gace.

Not only that, the unregenerate, person in the flesh cannot obey God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
How many times do you have to be told that faith is never a work? When will you accept this Biblical idea?
 
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