Election

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No, it doesn't. God is reconciled to the world regardless of whether we are reconciled to him. It is because he is reconciled that we have the ministry of reconciliation and preach "Be reconciled to God!" (2 Cor 5:20)


Doug
Are you saying that our Ministry of Reconciliation is proof that God has been Reconciled to everyone?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Yes, double-jeopardy. He paid our sin debt in full, "but not really."

And yet you can't explain how the elect being born children of wrath and under condemnation isn't double jeopardy.

Payments can have two stages, such as writing the check and cashing the check, it's not rocket science.

Hypocrisy much... par for the course.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
And yet you can't explain how the elect being born children of wrath and under condemnation isn't double jeopardy.

Payments can have two stages, such as writing the check and cashing the check, it's not rocket science.

Hypocrisy much... par for the course.
How is that double jeopardy? Please explain.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Are you saying that our Ministry of Reconciliation is proof that God has been Reconciled to everyone?
I am saying that there are two sides to reconciling a relationship; the atonement resolves both sides of the conflict. The divine side is effectually complete, allowing God to not count men's sins against them. (John says this is for not only the sins of those who were currently believers, but also for the sins of the whole world.)

2 Cor 5:11-ff is about the churches ministry of reconciliation. Someone asked the question how can God be reconciled to us and yet we are not reconciled to God? Can reconciliation be half done? I would ask if reconciliation is complete, then why do we have a ministry of reconciliation? Man still has to believe and repent to complete it.

Doug
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
When Adam fell, he severed that relationship he(and us, all his posterity) had with God. It was Adam, and also us, who needed reconciliation. God never moved, we did. We are the ones who need reconciled, not God.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The cross was where the atonement for sin was made. If this atonement was for each and every person whoever lived, then each and every person’s sins has been paid in full. If each and every person’s sins have been paid for, then God’s wrath for each and every person has been appeased, satisfied, satiated. And if God’s wrath has been appeased, satisfied, satiated, then there is no wrath to mete out on the day of Judgment. And if there is no wrath for God to mete out….HELLO UNIVERSALISM!!!!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I am saying that there are two sides to reconciling a relationship; the atonement resolves both sides of the conflict. The divine side is effectually complete, allowing God to not count men's sins against them. (John says this is for not only the sins of those who were currently believers, but also for the sins of the whole world.)

2 Cor 5:11-ff is about the churches ministry of reconciliation. Someone asked the question how can God be reconciled to us and yet we are not reconciled to God? Can reconciliation be half done? I would ask if reconciliation is complete, then why do we have a ministry of reconciliation? Man still has to believe and repent to complete it.

Doug
I'm confused, are you saying God needs to be Reconciled to Man? What about his Aseity?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Yes, double-jeopardy. He paid our sin debt in full, "but not really."
Where in scripture is double-jeopardy established. If a sovereign God can, as you assert, condemn the vast majority of a creation that he hasn't even created yet, then what value is there in double-jeopardy?

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I'm confused, are you saying God needs to be Reconciled to Man? What about his Aseity?

Aesity concerns his being eternally existent. The creation has nothing to do with his aesity. Creation is a level lower than aesity. God didn't need to create, but he desired to do so. The creation he desired was one that was based on relationship, reciprocal relationship in man's case. Thus, within this creation, God created a need of two parties being one the same page. Romans 12:18 says, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." The atonement allows God, in "as far as it depends on him" to live at peace with all mankind, but it says nothing about how the other party responds. Likewise, the Bible tells us that we are to forgive from the heart (Matt 18:35), regardless of whether the offender has sought forgiveness. I think this is what Jesus did on the cross by saying "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do."

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Aesity concerns his being eternally existent. The creation has nothing to do with his aesity. Creation is a level lower than aesity. God didn't need to create, but he desired to do so. The creation he desired was one that was based on relationship, reciprocal relationship in man's case. Thus, within this creation, God created a need of two parties being one the same page. Romans 12:18 says, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." The atonement allows God, in "as far as it depends on him" to live at peace with all mankind, but it says nothing about how the other party responds. Likewise, the Bible tells us that we are to forgive from the heart (Matt 18:35), regardless of whether the offender has sought forgiveness. I think this is what Jesus did on the cross by saying "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do."

Doug
I don't know Doug, that doesn't sound right. God Forgives Sons of Perdition from the Heart because Christ Reconciled God to them?
 
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