Election

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Thanks, I thought it was something like that...

As a Wesleyan, you believe in the Aseity of God; and believe God receives Glory from his Creation, so to me it's kind of a Non-question. It's like asking a Calvinist why they believe something to be true that you also believe to be true. God Created, he receives Glory from Creation; and his Aseity is maintained. So including Aseity into the discussion is like a 'Swerve'; something that isn't even needed in a discussion about God's Decree...

If God's Aseity does have to be involved in the discussion as you described it, then your description has to be consistent for us All; and would altogether disprove the existence of an Self-Sufficient God...

The question is not that he receives glory, and deservedly so, but rather that that is his motivation for creation. Carbon has seemed to posit that the reason he created and preordained everything, including election and reprobation, for the purpose of gaining glory for all his attributes.
The purpose of elect is the glorification of God. It's not to add glory to the already perfect God, but to reveal His glorious perfections which manifest themselves in the work of redemption to angels and men, in order that in reflecting upon them felicity may be experienced.

We agree that God needs nothing outside of himself. But was the purpose of creation simply to glorify himself? That is what the OP seems to be saying.


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The question is not that he receives glory, and deservedly so, but rather that that is his motivation for creation. Carbon has seemed to posit that the reason he created and preordained everything, including election and reprobation, for the purpose of gaining glory for all his attributes.


We agree that God needs nothing outside of himself. But was the purpose of creation simply to glorify himself? That is what the OP seems to be saying.


Doug
I say the purpose of God in Creation is to get a Bride for his Son. What does this say about his Aseity?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Choose or Refuse ~ by Reverend RV

Isaiah 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the brides virginity, so shall God rejoice over you.

In debates with Atheists, I come across some who genuinely want to know a Christian’s answer to their objections. Questions range from the simple to the complex; and sometimes the simple questions are those that need the complex answer. Bill the Atheist asked, “What is God’s real goal in creating Mankind?” Bill didn’t want answers like ‘The chief end of Man is to Glorify God and enjoy him always’. Bill objects that if this is the reason, then God could have made us in such a way that he would not eternally destroy us in Hell for our Sin. The ‘Shorter’ Catechism answer is correct, but Bill wanted a ‘lowest common denominator’ type of answer that will satisfy his objection. I responded by saying there can be more than one satisfactory answer, but I will give him my answer; “God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”

There are a few Theological Doctrines that come into play in answering the question; a complex answer to a ‘one liner’ question. One Doctrine is the Immutability of God; he doesn’t change. In eternity, God is a Trinity; the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since this is described as happening in eternity, it tests the Mind to think of a time when the three are not one. Because God doesn’t change, he cannot produce a Bride from his Essence like God produced a Son from his Essence; IE the Doctrine of Consubstantiality. A Bride must then be Created; thus she is the weaker vessel. This is where the Doctrine of God’s Incommunicable and Communicable Attributes come into play. A Creature cannot have all of God’s Attributes, or the Creature would be God. For instance, God is said to be ‘from Everlasting to Everlasting’; a Creature can only be from Creation to Everlasting. But a Creature can possess Gods Communicable Attributes, IE ‘Cogito ergo sum’; which means ‘I think, therefore I am’. ~ Man was Created a little lower than the Angels but through a relationship with God, our station is made higher than the Angels; making us closer to God. We will always be less than Divine, but through a Marriage with God’s Son; ‘the two become one’. This is how God’s Son gets a Bride…

Now as to why this couldn’t be achieved apart from the Fall of Adam, a Bride must be able to choose or Refuse her Groom, or the Marriage is not a true relationship. Mankind was Created Good; with freedom of Will. God gave Man dominion in the world, and this makes it necessary that we are free to exercise our dominion. The downfall is; Man can choose to Sin. ~ Because of Pride, Lucifer fell into Sin even in the pure environment of Heaven; and remember that Man was made weaker than the Angels. There comes a time we need to ask, ‘Can God have a relationship with a Mankind who can’t choose him without an option to resist?’ Would it be worth it for God to force himself on Humanity? ~ Are you Proud? Have you forced yourself on anther person? Go to God’s Risen Son Jesus Christ through Faith, for forgiveness of your Sins and you will become a pure Virgin by being Born Again; fit for marriage. When it comes to your Righteousness, God will rejoice over you! Repent of your Sins and join a Bible believing Church. ~ You have to admit, you’ve previously resisted his advances and he hasn’t forced himself on you yet; perhaps your Will is bound, just the other way around? Exercise your dominion; Choose him or Refuse him…

Matthew 22:1; Jesus spoke to them, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I say the purpose of God in Creation is to get a Bride for his Son. What does this say about his Aseity?
I think the purpose was to be in relationship with his creation, namely the highest expression of the creation, mankind, all of mankind.

If God didn't need to create to be glorified, then Aesity is not in question, it becomes a character issue. Again, I am responding to Carson's OP, in which he makes the claim that the purpose of election was to glorify God. His claim challenges the Aesity of God.


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Choose or Refuse ~ by Reverend RV

Isaiah 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the brides virginity, so shall God rejoice over you.

In debates with Atheists, I come across some who genuinely want to know a Christian’s answer to their objections. Questions range from the simple to the complex; and sometimes the simple questions are those that need the complex answer. Bill the Atheist asked, “What is God’s real goal in creating Mankind?” Bill didn’t want answers like ‘The chief end of Man is to Glorify God and enjoy him always’. Bill objects that if this is the reason, then God could have made us in such a way that he would not eternally destroy us in Hell for our Sin. The ‘Shorter’ Catechism answer is correct, but Bill wanted a ‘lowest common denominator’ type of answer that will satisfy his objection. I responded by saying there can be more than one satisfactory answer, but I will give him my answer; “God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”

There are a few Theological Doctrines that come into play in answering the question; a complex answer to a ‘one liner’ question. One Doctrine is the Immutability of God; he doesn’t change. In eternity, God is a Trinity; the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since this is described as happening in eternity, it tests the Mind to think of a time when the three are not one. Because God doesn’t change, he cannot produce a Bride from his Essence like God produced a Son from his Essence; IE the Doctrine of Consubstantiality. A Bride must then be Created; thus she is the weaker vessel. This is where the Doctrine of God’s Incommunicable and Communicable Attributes come into play. A Creature cannot have all of God’s Attributes, or the Creature would be God. For instance, God is said to be ‘from Everlasting to Everlasting’; a Creature can only be from Creation to Everlasting. But a Creature can possess Gods Communicable Attributes, IE ‘Cogito ergo sum’; which means ‘I think, therefore I am’. ~ Man was Created a little lower than the Angels but through a relationship with God, our station is made higher than the Angels; making us closer to God. We will always be less than Divine, but through a Marriage with God’s Son; ‘the two become one’. This is how God’s Son gets a Bride…

Now as to why this couldn’t be achieved apart from the Fall of Adam, a Bride must be able to choose or Refuse her Groom, or the Marriage is not a true relationship. Mankind was Created Good; with freedom of Will. God gave Man dominion in the world, and this makes it necessary that we are free to exercise our dominion. The downfall is; Man can choose to Sin. ~ Because of Pride, Lucifer fell into Sin even in the pure environment of Heaven; and remember that Man was made weaker than the Angels. There comes a time we need to ask, ‘Can God have a relationship with a Mankind who can’t choose him without an option to resist?’ Would it be worth it for God to force himself on Humanity? ~ Are you Proud? Have you forced yourself on anther person? Go to God’s Risen Son Jesus Christ through Faith, for forgiveness of your Sins and you will become a pure Virgin by being Born Again; fit for marriage. When it comes to your Righteousness, God will rejoice over you! Repent of your Sins and join a Bible believing Church. ~ You have to admit, you’ve previously resisted his advances and he hasn’t forced himself on you yet; perhaps your Will is bound, just the other way around? Exercise your dominion; Choose him or Refuse him…

Matthew 22:1; Jesus spoke to them, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son.
But, "God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”… raises the same question; why does he need a bride? If he doesn't need it, why would God elect/reprobate mankind to get a bride that wasn't needed?

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I think the purpose was to be in relationship with his creation, namely the highest expression of the creation, mankind, all of mankind.

If God didn't need to create to be glorified, then Aesity is not in question, it becomes a character issue. Again, I am responding to Carson's OP, in which he makes the claim that the purpose of election was to glorify God. His claim challenges the Aesity of God.


Doug
But since God Created a Bride for his Son, what does that say about God's Aseity?

I'm just showing that God can Create to receive Glory; and still have Aseity. If an example of this is Christ's Bride Glorifying God, other aspects such as Election/Reprobation can Glorify God without thwarting his Aseity...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But, "God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”… raises the same question; why does he need a bride? If he doesn't need it, why would God elect/reprobate mankind to get a bride that wasn't needed?

Doug
Oh, we're in deep waters; Lol...
 
G

guest1

Guest
Oh, we're in deep waters; Lol...
And for me personally in waters I don't like to tread since most of it would be speculation on things God has not spelled out for us. It does make for interesting philosophical arguments though. :)
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And for me personally in waters I don't like to tread since most of it would be speculation on things God has not spelled out for us. It does make for interesting philosophical arguments though. :)
God is self sufficient; I hold to Aseity. But it does get interesting when you consider that we owe God Worship and Glory Covenantally...

Being self sufficient doesn't mean God can't Decree things that come to pass which Glorify him. Obviously he did that. Heavenly Hosts do that. The Cross did that...

And Election does that...
 
G

guest1

Guest
God is self sufficient; I hold to Aseity. But it does get interesting when you consider that we owe God Worship and Glory Covenantally...

Being self sufficient doesn't mean God can't Decree things which Glorify him. Obviously he did that...
I don't think I owe God worship but that I do it because of His love for us and His forgiveness for my sins. I worship God out of a grateful heart not obligation or duty. I do it because I enjoy my relationship with Christ. Does that make sense ?

PS- I know worship is an individual thing and we have our own ways of doing that as individuals and maybe different reasons.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I don't think I owe God worship but that I do it because of His love for us and His forgiveness for my sins. I worship God out of a grateful heart not obligation or duty. I do it because I enjoy my relationship with Christ. Does that make sense ?
Yes, it makes sense...

Would you say you owed God Glory before you were Saved?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Would you say you owed God Glory before you were Saved?
No and I don't think I owe it now. Its just a part of who I am now and it has become a natural response in my life. I use to think that way early on but not these days. I just enjoy my fellowship with Christ on a daily basis. I look forward to spending time with Him in His word and prayer throughout the day. Does that make sense ?

I do believe I owe Him my life and to serve Him daily since He gave His life for me. Maybe I just contradicted myself lol.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No and I don't think I owe it now. Its just a part of who I am now and it has become a natural response in my life. I use to think that way early on but not these days. I just enjoy my fellowship with Christ on a daily basis. I look forward to spending time with Him in His word and prayer throughout the day. Does that make sense ?
Maybe. Would you agree that the Chief end of Man is to Glorify God?

So would you agree with Carbon that Unconditional Election Glorifies God?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I was going to conclude with the Chief end of the Reprobate Man is also to Glorify God...

But not include that their Chief end is to enjoy him always :)

I'm just showing that God can Create to receive Glory; and still have Aseity.
 
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