Election

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
You must be in Christ to receive forgiveness and redemption. Everything pertaining to Salvation is accessed only in Christ.
And yet what does the scriptures teach? We were chosen IN Christ from before the creation of the world. We were in Adam even while he was living in the Garden of Eden. Yet, we were not born until millennia later. But we were still IN Adam. Just as with Christ. We were chosen IN Christ from before the creation of the world, yet we were saved in time.

If you are not in Christ this may not make sense to you.


Thank you for the insult.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I was doing a little reading this evening before having to get ready for work, when I read this...


For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.[1 Thess. 2:13-16]

These very ppl Paul was writing about were in no way, shape, form, or fashion reconciled to God. The Greek word for "utmost", means, among other things, "to the full, continually," which shows these people were truly children of God's wrath, which means, again, they were not reconciled to God, neither was God reconciled to them.
Exactly!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
@Dizerner, you posted this...



What in tarnation are you talking about? Srsly?

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,[Hebrews 10:12]

This shoots that foolishness down.
He's out on a limb and the limb just cracked. Not sure what religion he is, but it isn't Christianity and it certainly doesn't represent the gospel nor the God of Scripture.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Like I've said in an earlier post, Atonement is a legal answer to the relational fracture of man and God. Sin is the dividing factor, and wrath is God's necessary and legal response to that. Atonement is meant to turn aside the need of wrath because Christ died for us, absorbing the wrath of the cross as a substitute to demonstrate the wrathful justice that we are worthy of receiving! Atonement satisfies God's requirement, and thus now allows for forgiveness of sins. God can look at us solely in love because of the atonement, and this allows God's love to be expressed unconditionally to all in forgiveness for all who confess and repent of our sins, recognizing and receiving the gracious forgiveness afforded by the atonement. God is willing to forgive, and in his heart already forgiven, but man's position and perspective needs to follow suit by believing the gospel that God does not hold our sin against us! Thus, we preach, "Be reconciled" to God -there is no reason to fear, and no fear of rejection!


Doug
So you're not teaching a Universal Reconciliation then? Because the way you say it, that's what it sounds like you're saying...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You're trying to prove God does not elect because of His aseity?
All sides believe in God's Aseity, and all sides believe in God's Election to some degree; so it's a Non Sequitur. Both aspects being true, proves that Election doesn't thwart Aseity; and proves the viability of Compatibalism for those who agree both are true...
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
All sides believe in God's Aseity, and all sides believe in God's Election to some degree; so it's a Non Sequitur. Both aspects being true, proves that Election doesn't thwart Aseity; and proves the viability of Compatibalism for those who agree both are true...
I'm fairly certain the Wesley's denied and/or loathed the doctrines of predestination and election.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
seth

Ok, let's go with human logic like yours. Only a cruel god would create people destined for hell.

So then you are speaking evil against the True God calling Him cruel, because He for His Own Glorious Purpose did create people destined for hell. That are called in scripture vessels of wrath, which He made as their Sovereign Potter, made them to fit them for destruction, which destruction is inclusive of going to hell for their sins Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That word destruction means among other things:


  1. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
 

civic

Well-known member
You must be in Christ to receive forgiveness and redemption. Everything pertaining to Salvation is accessed only in Christ.
If you are not in Christ this may not make sense to you
The Elect were IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. Why don't you believe the bible ? Why do you believe your ideas over scripture ?

Ephesians 1 declarers the following about those IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.

, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
 

civic

Well-known member
. A simplistic one-time universal unconditional transaction of forgiveness is nowhere supported in Scripture, even the strongest grace books in the Bible such as Galatians and Hebrews are replete with strong warnings and conditions.
You as another unnamed poster likes to make their "own ideas" equate to scripture instead of letting scripture form your ideas. Another example of eisegesis. Scripture is clears that forgiveness of sins occurred in the past at the cross. It is : PAST TENSE" meaning the forgiveness in Christ happened at the cross which is part of the the gospel defined in 1 Cor 15:3-5. Below reveals the contradiction in your above " IDEA" that is unbiblical as we read below.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
Generally on these threads, Calvinist do not seem to grasp what it means to be in Christ. They deny tne idea that what the bible teaches as the way to receive all that God has done for us is for us to be in Christ. They deny that you must come to Christ for redemption, that somehow if you are the Calvinist elect, you are redeemed without receiving Christ
Generally in these threads PELAGIANS do not seem to grasp what it means to be in Christ. They deny the biblical concept that scripture teaches that those who were predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world and all that God has done for those in Christ will be in Christ in time. They deny God has provided redemption for them because they were chosen in Him before the world was created. And that Christ was predestined as the Lamb of God to give His life for His bride- the church. They deny that only those whom Christ died for providing redemption will come to faith. Only those who receive Christ are His elect, chosen ones, His sheep whom He laid down His life for according to Jesus teaching in Johns gospel.

hope this helps !!!
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
You as another unnamed poster likes to make their "own ideas" equate to scripture instead of letting scripture form your ideas. Another example of eisegesis. Scripture is clears that forgiveness of sins occurred in the past at the cross. It is : PAST TENSE" meaning the forgiveness in Christ happened at the cross which is part of the the gospel defined in 1 Cor 15:3-5. Below reveals the contradiction in your above " IDEA" that is unbiblical as we read below.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

hope this helps !!!
Thank you for those passages it gives me something to study .
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
And I will throw this back at you. Only a cruel God would create someone that He knew would never use their free will so as to be saved, yet He created them anyways.

FYI, we are not created but PROcreated. God created Adam from the dust and Eve from Adam. We came into existence via procreation.
SO yes. our arguments are based on ignorance and supposition. Basically, your conclusion is that God has lied and does not love.
 

civic

Well-known member
SO yes. our arguments are based on ignorance and supposition. Basically, your conclusion is that God has lied and does not love.
Basically your conclusion is that God is truthful and has declared He can both Love and Hate. Thanks for the admission.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Generally in these threads PELAGIANS do not seem to grasp what it means to be in Christ. They deny the biblical concept that scripture teaches that those who were predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world and all that God has done for those in Christ will be in Christ in time. They deny God has provided redemption for them because they were chosen in Him before the world was created. And that Christ was predestined as the Lamb of God to give His life for His bride- the church. They deny that only those whom Christ died for providing redemption will come to faith. Only those who receive Christ are His elect, chosen ones, His sheep whom He laid down His life for according to Jesus teaching in Johns gospel.

hope this helps !!!
Civic, you made my point. You speak of "in Christ" but you have no understanding about what it means and what happens in time, on earth, to a person who receives Christ.
 
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