PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Provide scripture which speaks of slaves having no ability to choose; then we'll check context.
Election
- Thread starter Carbon
- Start date
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guest1
Guest
Romans 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:20;22
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I would agree that it is largely a philosophical question, and indeed, it is toward the deep end of the pool. But again, @Carbon has made the proposition that the purpose of election is to glorify God. (I find it interesting that @Carbon has not responded to his OP, at least not to me, but perhaps he has been unable to for some reason!) So he seems to find no trace of speculation in his thinking, which is why I am challenging it!And for me personally in waters I don't like to tread since most of it would be speculation on things God has not spelled out for us. It does make for interesting philosophical arguments though.
I obviously agree that God is glorified by what he does, and that we need to praise, acknowledge and honor him as Lord, but he did not act for the purpose of such glory and praise, for he doesn't need it! To do so would, in my humble opinion, deny him being love, which by his definition, is not self-seeking! God's interests are always toward the benefit of man, even when we are commanded to praise him!
Doug
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:20,22
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
We could use Exodus where Israelites were slaves to Pharaoh, yet were able to cry out for deliverance and God heard there plea.
Exo 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exo 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Sure, when you adress my questions. I'm sensing a pattern here.
1)Has God determined to grant belief?
2)
Can they choose to be free? Choose to leave?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Psalm 2:3-4; “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Who is breaking their chains? And who is "their"??
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guest1
Guest
I'm surprised you are asking me that question but the answer of course is a resounding YES !
1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him
2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 1:14
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
(faith is given out by God along with his grace)
Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed
(it is through God's grace that people believe)
Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Can one choose to cry out to God to be set free?
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guest1
Guest
You actually made my point. Only God can set a slave free. A slave of sin has its master SIN. They are enslaved to sin and CANNOT do anything RIGHTEOUS. Their righteousness is FILTHY RAGS and they are in BONDAGE/CHAINS to SIN. They have no freedom until the Son sets them free and whom the Son sets free is free indeed !
Thanks for your comments as they prove you are wrong.
hope this helps !!!
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Nothing prevents a slave from crying out to God for deliverance.
Exo 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exo 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Sorry civic. I clicked and responded to the wrong post
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guest1
Guest
no worries
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guest1
Guest
You still made my point they were the apple of His eyes- the children of Israel whom the Lord sent into slavery then set them free. They had no control over their slavery as God placed them there in the first place.
give it up peanut ............
next.................................................
brightfame52
Well-known member
Can a dead man do that ?
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
How can a dead man be a slave?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Can I answer that? Please?
Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
First clue... "slaves" are "enslaved". They are not "free"
17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Why should "thanks be to God" for our change?
Why should we thank "God", rather than praise ourselves?
If we keep reading, we'll see the answer:
18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
"having BEEN SET FREE from sin..."
That is PASSIVE voice, it was something done TO us. Someone (ie. God) is the one who "set us free".
It does NOT say, "We set ourselves free".
It says we "have BEEN SET free".
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guest1
Guest
man is dead in his trespasses and sins as per Ephesians 2 and also a slave of sin as per Romans 6 and sin their master. there is none who does good no not one.
next...........................
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Does not change the fact that they were slaves calling out to God for deliverance; your post stated:
Theo1689
Well-known member
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.