Election

[guest1]

Does not change the fact that they were slaves calling out to God for deliverance; your post stated:

they were Gods children the children of Israel.

any more fallacious arguments for us today mr peanut gallery ?

BTW- that is the most fitting screen name on CARM ever- I just LOVE it !

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[brightfame52]

How can a dead man be a slave?

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

 

[PeanutGallery]

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

You are equating dead in sin to physically dead.

 

[guest1]

You are equating dead in sin to physically dead.

The physically dead have no physical stimuli.
The spiritually dead have no spiritual stimuli.

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[PeanutGallery]

... What freedom does a slave have to choose, what free will does a slave have ?

Who is the slaves master ?

they were Gods children the children of Israel....

Irregardless, they were slaves and yet able to cry out for deliverance,

 

[guest1]

Irregardless, they were slaves and yet able to cry out for deliverance,

Paul was a slave in jail as well.

So much for your claim eh ?

Plus we ae talking about slaves who are dead in their sins. Comprehende amigo ?

So Israel, Joseph, Paul and Silas were not those who were dead in their sins.

I will not respond to anymore of your bait n switch tactics. Your fallacy of equivocation and conflating is duly noted.

 

[brightfame52]

You are equating dead in sin to physically dead.

Yes I am, as so does the scripture. Its a scriptural analogy

 

[PeanutGallery]

... we ae talking about slaves who are dead in their sins....

So Israel, Joseph, Paul and Silas were not those who were dead in their sins...

You mean the same Israelites who later died in the desert for unbelief were not dead in sins when they cried out to God for deliverance.

Exo 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exo 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Yes I am, as so does the scripture. Its a scriptural analogy

Theological analogy

 

[guest1]

You mean the same Israelites who later died in the desert for unbelief were not dead in sins when they cried out to God for deliverance.

Exo 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exo 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

Moses never made it to the promise land either, so much for your argument eh ?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Moses never made it to the promise land either, so much for your argument eh ?

Was he destroyed by God's wrath as the others?

 

[guest1]

Was he destroyed by God's wrath as the others?

Like I said enjoy your rabbit trails. You ignored every text and just ask questions with no exegesis. You are much like seth in that way. You argue just like the unitarians on the Trinity board who hate the Godhead in the same way you do with calvinists. The similarities cannot be overlooked.

We know in your topsy turvy world that:

slave means free
dead means alive
inability means ability
none does good means many can do good
belief is self generated and comes from self, not God- pelagianism

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
slave means free
dead means alive
inability means ability
none does good means many can do good
belief is self generated and comes from self, not God- pelagianism

Slave is free to call upon the Lord for deliverance
Dead in sin is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
Inability to save oneself is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
None who does good is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
TULIP is self generated and comes from self, not God - calvinism

 

[guest1]

Slave is free to call upon the Lord for deliverance
Dead in sin is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
Inability to save oneself is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
None who does good is able to call upon the Lord for deliverance
TULIP is self generated and comes from self, not God - calvinism

said the pelagian I love the irony in your post.

 

[brightfame52]

Theological analogy

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

 

[guest1]

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

dead means alive in his/her world, cannot means can, slave means free, inability means ability, truth means false, love means hate, up means down and right means wrong.

 

[PeanutGallery]

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

Prodigal son was dead and was able to repent.
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luke 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luke 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luke 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Sardis was dead and was able to repent.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

[brightfame52]

Prodigal son was dead and was able to repent.
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luke 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luke 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luke 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Sardis was dead and was able to repent.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

So can a dead man cry out for help ? Simple yes or no ?

 

[guest1]

So can a dead man cry out for help ? Simple yes or no ?

She never answers direct questions but always avoids them, good luck

 

[Carbon]

You have a lot of ground to cover in this OP, Carbon, but for now let me address this premise than you've laid as a foundational cornerstone of purpose and motivation to create and then elect both those who will be saved, and those who will not be.

Okay.

My first, and primary objection to this line of argument is this: Can a God that who wants to create such a creation do so and maintain his Aseity?

Of course, why would you think not? God says, His ways are not our ways. How do you think you can analyze in what manner God decrees and establishes things?

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

Doug

God's being is the basis for everything else that is.
Without God being, there could be nothing else.
And His decrees are glorious perfections!

God decrees are eternal, are of His choice, they are all wise, sovereign and unchangeable. Even causing the time and manner for His decrees to occur.
Don't these demonstrate His glorious perfections?

How would this go against God's Aseity?
If anything, considering God's Aseity, we should be in a place of a sense of awe.

God does not decree things in response to or according to, present issues, God does not decree things according to human decisions. God's decrees are from eternity. And these are glorious perfections.

God prevents no one from obtaining salvation, man excludes himself by his willful sin.

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

I'd say, He is God and can and will do as He chooses.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9.

I believe in the sovereign God, this does not present a problem for me.

Since God is a God of love and a just God, should we really have such a struggle with Him in the exorcize of His sovereign right to saving one and punish another?