Election

[Theo1689]

She never answers direct questions but always avoids them, good luck

It's a "she"?

 

[Carbon]

(I find it interesting that @Carbon has not responded to his OP, at least not to me, but perhaps he has been unable to for some reason!)

Doug

Hello Doug, sorry for not responding earlier, been pretty busy the past week.

 

[guest1]

It's a "she"?

I thought so but I could be wrong every time I say she/he the person doesn’t clarify his/her gender . Maybe he/she will read this and respond .

 

[Carbon]

The two prongs of the fork are either God needs glory outside of himself, thus he created the elect and the reprobate, or, if he didn't need it, he simply wanted to do so.

Self-sufficiency, part of the Aesity of God, means he cannot "need" anything outside of himself. This leaves that God wanted to show the fullness of his capacity by Election/reprobation, which in my mind, runs contrary to his character.


Doug

God does not need anything outside Himself.

But He did choose an elect.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 5:9.

How does it run contrary to His character?
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9.

He chooses according to His good pleasure.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Eph 1.

Some people were chosen for salvation so that God the Father can bestow His glory, love, and affection on God the Son
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1.

 

[Carbon]

By being dead in sin. So can a dead man cryy out to God ? Yes or No

No, cant cry out, cant seek, nothing, zilch! No can do.

 

[ReverendRV]

lf-sufficiency, part of the Aesity of God, means he cannot "need" anything outside of himself. This leaves that God wanted to show the fullness of his capacity by Election/reprobation, which in my mind, runs contrary to his character.


Doug

Would you say that since we now exist, God now needs his Children and his Bride? If No, what does that say about his character? If yes, what does it say about his Aseity?

Deep waters again; but I know the answer to this...

 

[Carbon]

You are equating dead in sin to physically dead.

Nicodemus was dead in Sin, he wasn't physically dead, but Jesus told him he must be born again.

 

[PeanutGallery]

So can a dead man cry out for help ? Simple yes or no ?

Prodigal son and Sardis did.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Nicodemus was dead in Sin, he wasn't physically dead, but Jesus told him he must be born again.

Right; dead in sin is not physical death.

 

[PeanutGallery]

... Maybe he/she will read this and respond .

He; I thought that was settled previously in the old forum before the crash.

 

[guest1]

Right; dead in sin is not physical death.

No one said otherwise , you sure like to twist what we say don’t you ?

 

[Carbon]

The two prongs of the fork are either God needs glory outside of himself, thus he created the elect and the reprobate, or, if he didn't need it, he simply wanted to do so.

Self-sufficiency, part of the Aesity of God, means he cannot "need" anything outside of himself. This leaves that God wanted to show the fullness of his capacity by Election/reprobation, which in my mind, runs contrary to his character.


Doug

Well, God wooing people on with prevenient grace sounds more to me like He may need something. He needs people to make a free will decision. And if they don't, He is not saving! To me that runs contrary to His character.

 

[Carbon]

You have a lot of ground to cover in this OP, Carbon, but for now let me address this premise than you've laid as a foundational cornerstone of purpose and motivation to create and then elect both those who will be saved, and those who will not be.

My first, and primary objection to this line of argument is this: Can a God that who wants to create such a creation do so and maintain his Aseity?

If he can, what does this say about the character of one who would want to create just to demonstrate his "glorious perfections"?

Doug

Let me say it like this.

Election is a divine act. And it has pleased God, who is all sufficient in Himself, to communicate His goodness, as He has chosen some men to be the recipients of that communication.

 

[PeanutGallery]

No one said otherwise ,...

Then he was able to choose life or death, to believe God's witnesses or hold the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[TibiasDad]

Of course, why would you think not? God says, His ways are not our ways. How do you think you can analyze in what manner God decrees and establishes things?...

I believe in the sovereign God, this does not present a problem for me....

I'd say, He is God and can and will do as He chooses.

Since God is a God of love and a just God, should we really have such a struggle with Him in the exorcize of His sovereign right to saving one and punish another?

If God needs to create, or needs to be glorified by something outside of himself, then he is not self-sufficient! His Aesity is destroyed!

If he doesn't need to do anything or have anything outside of himself, then this means a) he wanted to deliberately create a race that he would predestined to fall into sin, and the large majority of which he would condemn to eternal destruction, and redeem but a few, and b) that God, according to your OP, did all this for "the glorification of God".
This shows the reason and motivation of God in doing what he does! God, according to you, created and predetermined the election of a few and the condemnation of all others to glorify himself.

For me, this is impossible! God is love, and one of the hallmarks of love is that it is not self-seeking. (1 Cor 13:5) God doesn't do anything for his own benefit. He is selfless. He needs nothing! It violates these characteristics of God's holiness! God is sovereign, of this I have no doubt, but God's sovereignty cannot violate his being and nature.

Now, I am not saying that God doesn't deserve and call for man to glorify him. Nor am I saying that condemnation is unjust. (Nor am I implying that all will/must be saved in the end!) God is love, but that means that he is also just. Whatever a man sows, that will he also reap! But what am saying, is I think that God cannot preordain the irrevocable condemnation of one part and the irrevocable election of the few, nor can the purpose of this double election be expressly to gain glory. We need to glorify him because we need to keep perspective of who he is and who we are! He commands praise for our benefit, not his own!

God's being is the basis for everything else that is.
Without God being, there could be nothing else.
And His decrees are glorious perfections!

I don't disagree. Everything God does is glorious perfection.

God decrees are eternal, are of His choice, they are all wise, sovereign and unchangeable. Even causing the time and manner for His decrees to occur.
Don't these demonstrate His glorious perfections?

I want to know how predetermined reprobation demonstrates a glorious perfection?

How would this go against God's Aseity?

Answered above!

If anything, considering God's Aseity, we should be in a place of a sense of awe.

Indeed! No argument here!

God does not decree things in response to or according to, present issues, God does not decree things according to human decisions. God's decrees are from eternity. And these are glorious perfections.

I agree, but we would differ on what those eternal decrees are; but that is another discussion for another time.

God prevents no one from obtaining salvation, man excludes himself by his willful sin.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9.

I would say that my willful sin is not mine if I am decreed to its necessity and action! It is God's will, not mine!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God does not need anything outside Himself.

But He did choose an elect.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 5:9.

How does it run contrary to His character?
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9.

He chooses according to His good pleasure.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Eph 1.

Some people were chosen for salvation so that God the Father can bestow His glory, love, and affection on God the Son
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1.

I have but a moment here, but I would say that the Arminian view accomplishes the same thing!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Would you say that since we now exist, God now needs his Children and his Bride? If No, what does that say about his character? If yes, what does it say about his Aseity?

Deep waters again; but I know the answer to this...

He does not "need" to have a bride, but he wants to reconcile his creation to himself. But he has established a covenant (that he didn't "need/have" to do) that he "needs" to be faithful to keep.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Well, God wooing people on with prevenient grace sounds more to me like He may need something. He needs people to make a free will decision. And if they don't, He is not saving! To me that runs contrary to His character.

1) With all due respect, you're not answering the question. You have made a proposition that needs to be defended; it is not about what I believe or what you think I believe.

2) Your analysis is faulty! You are equivocating the term need. God doesn't need anyone to believe or make a free will decision. It would not affect him in the least if nobody believed! He didn't create because he needed man for anything, so man's ultimate ending does not benefit or diminish God's being or existence one iota.
Moreover, Christ has provided salvation for all that believe, and reconciled God to the world. That some reject this salvation is not to say that God is not saving! The human experience of the reconciliation is different from the reconciliation being established.
God's character only demands that reconciliation be effectually established, that salvation be truly available to and for all, not that it be accepted by man!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Let me say it like this.

Election is a divine act. And it has pleased God, who is all sufficient in Himself, to communicate His goodness, as He has chosen some men to be the recipients of that communication.

The Arminian position crosses all those T’s and dots all the I’s as well and God maintains his Aesity and character in the process!
All men are the recipients of this communication, for the Light that comes shines on every one that comes into the world! (Jn 1:9)

Election means that the lost are lost from before the foundation of the world. That cannot be done without violating his foundational characteristic, God is love!

In eternity past, when all that existed was the triune Godhead, God had the capacity for Justice, wrath, and condemnation, but there was no need for these. There has always been the need for love!

Doug

 

[Sethproton]

No, cant cry out, cant seek, nothing, zilch! No can do.

Jesus told a parable(maybe true story) which is contrary to what you are saying.
The rich man in hades cried out, sought help for himself and his brothers