Election

Sethproton

Well-known member
Sure all those passages have Jesus in the present tense with His being Mediator, Man, Body etc............. Also the one God is in the present.

But you have all those in the past tense.

And since Paul is using syllogism in 1 Timothy 2:5 with :

There IS One God

and

There IS One Mediator

You cannot have God in the present and Mediator in the past. They are either both past or present you cannot have one without the other to be consistent.

You claim to understand logic but you clearly have demonstrated you toss logic out the window in 1 Timothy 2:5 to support your false idea that Jesus is no longer a mediator or a man yet contradict yourself by saying there is still a God.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.

You are clearly using eisegesis by reading your own personal ideas into the text rather than allowing the rules of grammar and syntax to form your ideas. You are demonstrating eisegesis not exegesis.

hope this helps !!!
In 1 Timothy 2:5 there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind
You are making a big point based on the tense of the verb "is"
If you look at the Greek words in the verse, there is no word for "is" It is assumed by the translators as what the verse is saying
So any argument you have given so far about the tense of the Greek verb, has no validity
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
In 1 Timothy 2:5 there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind
You are making a big point based on the tense of the verb "is"
If you look at the Greek words in the verse, there is no word for "is" It is assumed by the translators as what the verse is saying

Why would you "look at the Greek", when you don't even UNDERSTAND the Greek, Seth?

If you don't like 1 Tim. 2:5, we can look elsewhere:

Heb. 8:6 ... by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, ...
Heb. 8:6 ... ὅσῳ καὶ κρείττονός ἐστιν διαθήκης μεσίτης, ...

Heb. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, ...
Heb. 9:15 Καὶ διὰ τοῦτο διαθήκης καινῆς μεσίτης ἐστίν,

You see, Seth... You mud-sling at Calvinists, falsely claiming that we start with our doctrine, and don't properly study Scripture. But we see that YOU are the one who is guilty of that, not us. You failed to do a study on "mediator", and study the passages, and "look at the Greek" (that you can't even understand), to see that you're wrong.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Why would you "look at the Greek", when you don't even UNDERSTAND the Greek, Seth?

If you don't like 1 Tim. 2:5, we can look elsewhere:

Heb. 8:6 ... by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, ...
Heb. 8:6 ... ὅσῳ καὶ κρείττονός ἐστιν διαθήκης μεσίτης, ...

Heb. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, ...
Heb. 9:15 Καὶ διὰ τοῦτο διαθήκης καινῆς μεσίτης ἐστίν,

You see, Seth... You mud-sling at Calvinists, falsely claiming that we start with our doctrine, and don't properly study Scripture. But we see that YOU are the one who is guilty of that, not us. You failed to do a study on "mediator", and study the passages, and "look at the Greek" (that you can't even understand), to see that you're wrong.
Now I bet we will get nothing but silence, I can hear the crickets chirping :)
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Why would you "look at the Greek", when you don't even UNDERSTAND the Greek, Seth?

If you don't like 1 Tim. 2:5, we can look elsewhere:

Heb. 8:6 ... by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, ...
Heb. 8:6 ... ὅσῳ καὶ κρείττονός ἐστιν διαθήκης μεσίτης, ...

Heb. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, ...
Heb. 9:15 Καὶ διὰ τοῦτο διαθήκης καινῆς μεσίτης ἐστίν,

You see, Seth... You mud-sling at Calvinists, falsely claiming that we start with our doctrine, and don't properly study Scripture. But we see that YOU are the one who is guilty of that, not us. You failed to do a study on "mediator", and study the passages, and "look at the Greek" (that you can't even understand), to see that you're wrong.
I do not understand how anyone could read Jesus is our mediator and say He is not, that makes no sense to me. Those passages make it clear that He is still our mediator.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I do not understand how anyone could read Jesus is our mediator and say He is not, that makes no sense to me. Those passages make it clear that He is still our mediator.
And you have just nailed it as you can see the dilemma he has put himself in with saying the Mediator is past, not present. Theo1689 just ended the discussion with the present tense verbs in those 2 passages. One has to turn a blind eye to the truth in those passage and make their ideas the standard over scripture. That is exaltly what the cults like JW's and mormons do with the bible. This poster uses that same method.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I do not understand how anyone could read Jesus is our mediator and say He is not, that makes no sense to me. Those passages make it clear that He is still our mediator.
That's status quo for him. If we claimed (and we do) Jesus is LORD he'd have a problem with that as well, it is guaranteed he would find something to deny it since we believe it, whether what he says to do so is true or not true.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Calvinism is discredited. Mainstream Christianity disagrees with TULIP.
There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors and when the multitude think you are wrong, you should do as i do and go back to the Bible, read with an open heart and pray for understanding
Please tell us who is the Mainstream Christianity?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do not understand how anyone could read Jesus is our mediator and say He is not, that makes no sense to me. Those passages make it clear that He is still our mediator.
I write Gospel Tracts, and @Sethproton inspired the following one...

The Anthropos God ~ by ReverendRV

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
; For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Church teaches that Jesus Christ is God and Man in one person, and our verse is a prime example of this. It teaches us Jesus Christ is still a Man, even though he now lives in Heaven. Our Verse uses the same Greek word ‘Anthropos’ twice, drawing a distinction between Mankind and the Mediator; but at the same time establishing a common Cord. Anthropos is used first here for the plural word ‘Men’, then where the singular word ‘Man’ is used. Anthropos is mostly translated into English as Man or Mankind, as seen here. ~ Several false religions try to teach us that Jesus arose from the grave, absent a body; IE religions like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But our Verse tells us that Jesus is still an Anthropos Man like we are. The sad news is that some people in Orthodox Christian Churches teach other Christians, that in one way or another, we are wrong about the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ. ~ Are they in your Church?

Why does it really matter? Because the Bible also says that if Christ isn’t risen, we are to be most Pitied; we’re still in our Sins. ~ Have you had another god more important than the true God? No one comes to God the Father except through Jesus; right? The Bible also says we can be mistaken and have “Another” Jesus, so if your perspective of who Jesus is, is wrong; you have another god before the God of the Bible! This is the epitome of Idolatry; even if you get everything else about God right. ~ Getting it wrong means you’ve broken the first Commandments of God. If God judged you by all Ten Commandments, would you be innocent or guilty? Don’t dawdle; if God exists, you’d be guilty. Does this bother you? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell since you have nothing but an Idol to mediate between you and an angry God?

For God so loves the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus is the only person who has never Sinned, yet he gave up his own life so that we may live. He did this by bleeding to death on a Cross to satisfy the Wrath of God against Sinners. He was buried but in three days he arose from the Grave, having the power to forgive your Sins. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ, without any Works of Merit from us. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; start going to a Church that agrees with this Gospel. ~ Adam and Moses mediated Old Covenants with God for us, but both Covenants were broken. For this reason, Jesus Christ Mediated a New Covenant with his Blood. The Anthropos Man Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place in Heaven, and purified us once for all time with his ‘real’ blood; not by any kind of ghostly Blood Atonement. Like Moses did for Israel, Jesus still Mediates for us on a regular basis. Jesus is now a Glorified Anthropos Man; but never the less he’s still a Human Being. ~ Saint Thomas Doubted the Bodily Resurrection too. If you had felt who he felt, his words would dribble out of your mouth too…

John 20:27-28 NIV; Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
In 1 Timothy 2:5 there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind
You are making a big point based on the tense of the verb "is"
If you look at the Greek words in the verse, there is no word for "is" It is assumed by the translators as what the verse is saying
So any argument you have given so far about the tense of the Greek verb, has no validity
Are you saying that it is up to the reader then to decide what tense should be applied. Is, was, or will/might be? As Theo has pointed out, Hebrews clearly uses the present tense “is”. Your whole argument is wishful thinking when compared to the rest of scripture.


Doug
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Are you saying that it is up to the reader then to decide what tense should be applied. Is, was, or will/might be? As Theo has pointed out, Hebrews clearly uses the present tense “is”. Your whole argument is wishful thinking when compared to the rest of scripture.


Doug
Yes since Hebrews and 1 Timothy are discussing the same Mediator between God and man- the man Christ Jesus. Jesus present humanity is discussed throughout the entire book of Hebrews. How on cannot see that is beyond comprehension. The only reason would be a personal bias against Jesus humanity. Scripture never once hints that Jesus is no longer human and declares just the opposite that His humanity is forever.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
It is a phrase describing the majority of the Christian church over the centuries, regardless of church affiliation, that embraces certain doctrines. TULIP is outside of that.
And Jesus as our PRESENT MEDIATOR is inside of that. The contradictions keep piling up on your behalf.

So are you going with the majority or the minority view ?

oops..................................................................................................
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Are you saying that it is up to the reader then to decide what tense should be applied. Is, was, or will/might be? As Theo has pointed out, Hebrews clearly uses the present tense “is”. Your whole argument is wishful thinking when compared to the rest of scripture.


Doug
I thought you of all people would be more careful in your response. In the Greek there is one word translated "there is one" and it is the word heis, which strictly translated is the number one.
So while "there is one" is probably an accurate translation, it does not allow for making doctrine on the tense of a verb, since no verb exists.
Surely you can see that?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is a phrase describing the majority of the Christian church over the centuries, regardless of church affiliation, that embraces certain doctrines. TULIP is outside of that.

"That's not how this works.
That's not how any of this works!
"

May I assume, then, that you use a Bible translation based on the "Majority Text", rather than based on the TR or the CT?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
And Jesus as our PRESENT MEDIATOR is inside of that. The contradictions keep piling up on your behalf.

So are you going with the majority or the minority view ?

oops..................................................................................................
Yes, in this case, mainstream Christianity sees the verse teaching that Jesus is our present mediator. I am not mainstream, but I admit that and argue within that understanding.
And that is irrelevant to my point which is calvinism is not mainstream yet Calvinists talk as if anyone who disagrees with Calvinist is in a minority
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
"That's not how this works.
That's not how any of this works!
"

May I assume, then, that you use a Bible translation based on the "Majority Text", rather than based on the TR or the CT?
He uses the NASB based off the TR. :) So much for the minority view is wrong. :)
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
"That's not how this works.
That's not how any of this works!
"

May I assume, then, that you use a Bible translation based on the "Majority Text", rather than based on the TR or the CT?
I use translations based on either. your point is pointless, just another attempt to side track truth
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I thought you of all people would be more careful in your response. In the Greek there is one word translated "there is one" and it is the word heis, which strictly translated is the number one.
So while "there is one" is probably an accurate translation, it does not allow for making doctrine on the tense of a verb, since no verb exists.
Surely you can see that?

Since you couldn't read Greek if your life depended on it, let me explain it to you...

1) The verb "is" (Greek, "estin", present tense) EXPLICITLY appears in the two Hebrews verses I quoted (which you have IGNORED).

2) As for the 1 Tim. 2:5 text, the verb "is" is implicit in the text. This frequently occurs in the Greek, that the verb is implied in terms of identity attribute, or what is called the "predicate nominative". But since it teaches identity, it is ALWAYS the present tense, "is", and is never any other tense (such as aorist, imperfect, future, perfect, etc.).


It's interesting when you read this passage:

Phil. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The word "is" is not explicit in the text. Could we (as Seth suggests) change it to mean, "Jesus Christ WAS Lord"?

1Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The word "is" is not explicit in the text. Could we (as Seth suggests) change it to mean, "Jesus WAS the Lord"?

You simply have no leg to stand on.
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
Yes, in this case, mainstream Christianity sees the verse teaching that Jesus is our present mediator. I am not mainstream, but I admit that and argue within that understanding.
And that is irrelevant to my point which is calvinism is not mainstream yet Calvinists talk as if anyone who disagrees with Calvinist is in a minority
Nothing about your doctrines are mainstream. So you are contradicting yourself with tulip. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
He uses the NASB based off the TR. :) So much for the minority view is wrong. :)
Actually Civic, you should stop trying to speak for me. You fail at it and misrepresent me.
Yes, I read NASB, but I always read KJV and ESV. All three are for me excellent translations
 
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