Election

Sethproton

Well-known member
So a verb must be actually present, as opposed to implied, in order for it to carry theological significance? The critical portion of 1 Tim 2:5 is that the present tense mediator is "the man Jesus Christ". The " is" is a rabbit trail, as you have admitted that the present tense is the appropriate translation, and the present tense is cleary written in Hebrews, so your present argument is invalidated.

Moreover, I am still waiting for you to prove your thesis:

"...no language, syntax of lexical facts are going to provide your understanding of Mediator. Your understanding comes from the church"

Thus, you would need to demonstrate that, a) you can express my "understanding of Mediator", and that b) the language, syntax, an lexical is contrary to "my understanding of Mediator."

Doug
I said a verb must be present if we are to make a point about it's tense. How is that the same as theological significanceof the words that are present?
Unless you are saying you are making theological significance from the tense of the verb that does not exist.

mediator is a noun and has no tense.

As far as the appropriate translation, that is not a black and white issue. I am familiar with three languages to varying degrees and the way thoughts are expressed in those languages. If I use a verb to express a japanese concept that does not have a verb in the original language, then a detailed study of my English sentence is not really a detailed study of the Japanese. The fact is. there is no "IS" in the verse and so discussion about the verb tense is irrelevant. Numbers don't have tense

I have already explained by reference to a lexicon entry and reference to the court system, what is meant by mediator. If you read that here, it will do no good for me to repeat it. If you cannot find it, for you, I will write another version and post it here
 

civic

Well-known member
I said a verb must be present if we are to make a point about it's tense. How is that the same as theological significanceof the words that are present?
Unless you are saying you are making theological significance from the tense of the verb that does not exist.

mediator is a noun and has no tense.

As far as the appropriate translation, that is not a black and white issue. I am familiar with three languages to varying degrees and the way thoughts are expressed in those languages. If I use a verb to express a japanese concept that does not have a verb in the original language, then a detailed study of my English sentence is not really a detailed study of the Japanese. The fact is. there is no "IS" in the verse and so discussion about the verb tense is irrelevant. Numbers don't have tense

As far as me explaining what I said above, What i saw you give me as an explanation for Christ being our mediator, was simple the churches take on it. You did not address the lexicon or syntax or really anything about the structure of the statement. Only thing you did was support the standard church position.
The answer to the question which Theo, Doug and I have pointed out is the predicate nominative . That was explained to you from the Greek . But of course you do not understand how Greek or English works in Bible translations.


I will quote Theo1689

"As for the 1 Tim. 2:5 text, the verb "is" is implicit in the text. This frequently occurs in the Greek, that the verb is implied in terms of identity attribute, or what is called the "predicate nominative". But since it teaches identity, it is ALWAYS the present tense, "is", and is never any other tense (such as aorist, imperfect, future, perfect, etc.)."


And he is 100% correct see below :

Nominative-Predicate​

Linking verbs such as εἰμί, γίνομαι, and ὑπάρχω are completed with an object in nominative case. The Nominative-Predicate (also referred to as Predicate Nominative) construction can take different forms but consists of a subject + a linking verb + an object in the nominative case. [The linking verb may be implied and not actually present in the text.] Care must be used in the translation of a Nominative-Predicate because the object may not be in the last position and is often not an exact equivalent of the subject. The Predicate Nominative is generally the larger class of objects, while the subject is the smaller class. Therefore, the translator must clearly understand which word (or phrase) is the subject of the sentence and which word (or phrase) is the predicate nominative. The translator must use equal care in the translation so that the reader will be able to distinguish between the subject and the predicate nominative.

Consider the sentence, “Paul is a man.” “Paul” is the subject and “man” is the Nominative-Predicate. The translator must be careful to first understand the passage and then take equal care in the translation to make sure the reader understands that Paul is the subject and man is the Nominative-Predicate. English uses word order to indicate which word is the subject and which word is the Predicate Nominative. Therefore reversing the word order in English to say “a man is Paul” would lead the reader to think that all men are “Paul” which is not true. The more definite of the two words (or clauses) in the nominative case will be the subject of the sentence.https://ugg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/case_nominative
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Sethproton

Well-known member
The answer to the question which Theo, Doug and I have pointed out is the predicate nominative . That was explained to you from the Greek . But of course you do not understand how Greek or English works in Bible translations.


I will quote Theo1689

"As for the 1 Tim. 2:5 text, the verb "is" is implicit in the text. This frequently occurs in the Greek, that the verb is implied in terms of identity attribute, or what is called the "predicate nominative". But since it teaches identity, it is ALWAYS the present tense, "is", and is never any other tense (such as aorist, imperfect, future, perfect, etc.)."


And he is 100% correct see below :

Nominative-Predicate​

Linking verbs such as εἰμί, γίνομαι, and ὑπάρχω are completed with an object in nominative case. The Nominative-Predicate (also referred to as Predicate Nominative) construction can take different forms but consists of a subject + a linking verb + an object in the nominative case. [The linking verb may be implied and not actually present in the text.] Care must be used in the translation of a Nominative-Predicate because the object may not be in the last position and is often not an exact equivalent of the subject. The Predicate Nominative is generally the larger class of objects, while the subject is the smaller class. Therefore, the translator must clearly understand which word (or phrase) is the subject of the sentence and which word (or phrase) is the predicate nominative. The translator must use equal care in the translation so that the reader will be able to distinguish between the subject and the predicate nominative.


next
having a predicate nominative does not give a person the right to make interpretations based on a verb that does not exist. yes, there is an equality. IS an equality. The equality IS what exists.
 

civic

Well-known member
having a predicate nominative does not give a person the right to make interpretations based on a verb that does not exist. yes, there is an equality. IS an equality. The equality IS what exists.
Every translation and scholar has the PN in 1 Tim 2:5 reading as “ There IS one God.”

You have no legs on which to stand . Not one Greek Scholar, Theologian, Translator or Translation supports your view, not a single one. You are stranded on your own island, all alone in isolation.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Every translation and scholar has the PN in 1 Tim 2:5 reading as “ There IS one God.”

You have no legs on which to stand . Not one Greek Scholar, Theologian, Translator or Translation supports your view, not a single one. You are stranded on your own island, all alone in isolation.
They all support my view, that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly.
But they do not address my actual issue, you cannot make a doctrinal point about a verb tense when there is no verb
 

civic

Well-known member
They all support my view, that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly.
But they do not address my actual issue, you cannot make a doctrinal point about a verb tense when there is no verb
No one in Christendom supports your view in 1 Timothy 2:5.

The JW cult even knows better than to use your reasoning from that passage. They just deny He is God in the passage whereas you deny He is our Mediator.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
They all support my view, that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly.
But they do not address my actual issue, you cannot make a doctrinal point about a verb tense when there is no verb

So is that the "tenseless" form of "is"?

Absolute silliness.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
look everyone seth is right and every translation is wrong. But seth will not read it because I cut n pasted the truth which he rejects.

Oh and it has his 3 favorite versions below he swears by the KJ, NASB and ESV that all contradict him.

New International Version
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Berean Study Bible
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Berean Literal Bible
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

King James Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

New King James Version
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

New American Standard Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Amplified Bible
For there is [only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, Himself human,

American Standard Version
For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah,

Contemporary English Version
There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human, and he gave himself to rescue all of us.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

English Revised Version
For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

Good News Translation
For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans-a human, Christ Jesus.

International Standard Version
There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.

Literal Standard Version
for [there is] one God, also one mediator of God and of men—the man Christ Jesus,

NET Bible
For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,

New Heart English Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and humanity, a human, Christ Jesus,

Weymouth New Testament
For there is but one God and but one Mediator between God and men--Christ Jesus, Himself man;

World English Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Young's Literal Translation
for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
It sure is clear that there is a consensus on that passage which implies the verb is was implied . I do not know Greek but I believe they cannot all be wrong in every translation that says there is one God.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It sure is clear that there is a consensus on that passage which implies the verb is was implied . I do not know Greek but I believe they cannot all be wrong in every translation that says there is one God.
of course they are not wrong. That must be the correct way to express it in English. I NEVER said anything different from that.
But since the other calvinists do not want to respond to what i am actually stating, I will tell you and maybe you can make a reasoned response.
In the Greek there is no verb, therefore there can be no tense. The English translation needs a verb to make sense, but that does not mean you can examine the Greek verb. You cannot examine or make doctrinal statements about a verb that does not exist.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Again, YOU said that the word "IS" (which is a VERB, Seth!) was "needed", so you are talking out of both sides of your mouth!

So tell us more about these allegedly "tenseless verbs"? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
"Is" is needed in English to express the equality. It is not meant to express current time, but to express equality.
Greek apparently does not need a verb to do that.
You are mixing up the Greek and English, In this situation, Greek does not need a verb, but english needs a verb denoting equality.
Do all of you find that difficult to understand? Does nobody understand that?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
of course they are not wrong. That must be the correct way to express it in English. I NEVER said anything different from that.
But since the other calvinists do not want to respond to what i am actually stating, I will tell you and maybe you can make a reasoned response.
In the Greek there is no verb, therefore there can be no tense. The English translation needs a verb to make sense, but that does not mean you can examine the Greek verb. You cannot examine or make doctrinal statements about a verb that does not exist.
I read Theo1689, Tibiasdads and civics responses and they seem to know something about Greek and they provided references for what they called a nominative predicate that implies the verb is belongs in the text . I have to take their word for it since they supported it with Greek references . That is what I have been asking you to do sethptoton.
 

civic

Well-known member
It sure is clear that there is a consensus on that passage which implies the verb is was implied . I do not know Greek but I believe they cannot all be wrong in every translation that says there is one God.
Yes it is implied which is why every translation includes it that "there IS one God". They do that because of the predicate nominative case in the Greek. The bottom line is when there is a consensus with all translation as is the case with 1 Timothy 2 :5 then the verb is belongs in the text which the Greek case as Theo, Tibias and I pointed out to seth but he is in denial because he assumes Jesus is no longer a man therefor reads that ideas into every single text in the New Testament to deny Jesus is a man and denies the bodily Resurrection/Ascension of Jesus. He denies the historic and biblical view of the Incarnation, the gospel, the Resurrection and he is also kenosis. All these are heterodox and any one of them if disbelieved is salvific, but to deny them all is apostasy. John calls that belief the very spirit of the antichrist as per 1 John 4:2, 2 John 7.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I read Theo1689, Tibiasdads and civics responses and they seem to know something about Greek and they provided references for what they called a nominative predicate that implies the verb is belongs in the text . I have to take their word for it since they supported it with Greek references . That is what I have been asking you to do sethptoton
It seems we are discussing much of the same ideas in two threads, but in this case you seem to have missed that i was the one who pointed out that in the greek there is no verb. Instead what we have is the Greek word for "one"
Do you know what it means that there is no verb? That without a verb there can be no tense?
When Civic claims that the word "is" present tense in the Greek, he is mistaken because there is no verb there, so there is no tense.

So hopefully, you correct one thought that i contributed nothing about the nature of the text. I am the only one acknowledging there is no verb in the Greek. Civic constantly makes doctrinal points about that verb in Greek, the one that does not exist.
And you speak as if you are unsure about a nominative in the predicate, it just means a noun it the predicate part of the sentence that is equal to the subject. like in the sentence, "Mark is a man" the word "man" is a predicate nominative because it is equal to "Mark"
In our verse the pronoun "there" connects to "mediator" as an equality and so mediator is a predicate nominative
 

civic

Well-known member
I read Theo1689, Tibiasdads and civics responses and they seem to know something about Greek and they provided references for what they called a nominative predicate that implies the verb is belongs in the text . I have to take their word for it since they supported it with Greek references . That is what I have been asking you to do sethptoton.
That what everyone has been asking and we have yet to see it done just one time.
 
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