Election

Sethproton

Well-known member
Seth, the verb not being actually written doesn’t mean the verb is not there by necessary implication.

If you can establish meaning, which you admittedly have, you can, and have, established a theological belief, or at least the foundation on which a belief rests. The “is” is both necessary and thus implicit, and you would do well to shelf the, to use your word, the nonsense of your self stultifying argument.

Doug
Ok Doug. If you think you can make a theological point about the tense of a verb that does not exist, we should stop discussing that particular point
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Can you tell us why every single translation without exception includes the verb is in 1 Tim 2:5. What do you see that every single translator does not see ?

Are all the translators wrong when they are in complete agreement ?

But you don't understand!

All the Greek scholars who translated the New Testament are all wrong!
And Seth (who knows ZERO Greek) is correct!

And ALL the lexicons that neglect to define "μεσιτης" as "court" mediator are all wrong!
And Seth (who knows ZERO Greek) is correct!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Can you tell us why every single translation without exception includes the verb is in 1 Tim 2:5. What do you see that every single translator does not see ?

Are all the translators wrong when they are in complete agreement ?
Johnny, are you having difficulty reading these posts and remembering what is being said? Is there some different way i should talk to you to help you? But let me answer your question again.
In our verse, in the Greek, there is no verb. The sentence is understood without a verb. In English we need a verb to understand what is meant,
But since the Greek has no verb there, a person cannot make a theological point about a present tense verb.
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
Johnny, are you having difficulty reading these posts and remembering what is being said? Is there some different way i should talk to you to help you?
I don’t see an answer to Johnny’s question….
Ok Doug. If you think you can make a theological point about the tense of a verb that does not exist, we should stop discussing that particular point
It does exist implicitly in the Greek, which is why the “is” is necessarily included in English to make sense in our language.

And how do you arrive at the conclusion that “is” is a correct translation of 1 Tim 2:5? (And this must be a Greek sytaxical response, btw!)

And you are avoiding my argument about meaning being the foundation of interpretation! If you assert with us that the English translation of “is” is correct, as you have, then the meaning of the clause is the same whether it has the verb or not, correct! If there is real meaning to the English translation in that clause, then it informs the meaning of the remained of the verse as well, and the meaning of the whole completed thought becomes the rationale for concluding the author’s intended message to his readers, does it not?

Then in the end, meaning is derived and theological arguments can be made based on the meaning of the thought with or without the verbs written presence in the sentence.

Doug
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
I don’t see an answer to Johnny’s question….

It does exist implicitly in the Greek, which is why the “is” is necessarily included in English to make sense
I think you and i have reached an impasse with you claiming an implicit verb can be studied and used to create doctrine. NOTE: the concepts of existing and implicit are opposites. So to say something exists implicitly is an oxymoron

But as far as Johnny's question, I've tried to keep up though for some reason I answer and a few posts later he asks the exact question again.
But your help would be appreciated, can you articulate the question he asked that you would like to see an answer to?
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
I think you and i have reached an impasse with you claiming an implicit verb can be studied and used to create doctrine.
ie, You have no repudiation of my argument!
NOTE: the concepts of existing and implicit are opposites. So to say something exists implicitly is an oxymoron

An implication is based on the presumed existence of something as necessary to the thought. “The ocean has fish” implies that I include sharks in the statement. Implying does not mean that I am creating something non-existent to make my statement, “the ocean has fish” true! That is precisely what you seem to be saying; that we are making up the meaning of “is” in order to create the meaning we want!
“heis gar Theos” means nothing in Greek if the verb “estin” is not necessarily implied by either the context or syntax. And the English translation would be even more meaningless is no verb is found or intended in the Greek!

Believe what you want, that is your prerogative, but it is not an informed belief, and I have done all I can to dissuade you of your error. My shoes are now dustless and I leave you to your own recognizance.

May the grace of God enlighten your mind and heart,

Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
ie, You have no repudiation of my argument!


An implication is based on the presumed existence of something as necessary to the thought. “The ocean has fish” implies that I include sharks in the statement. Implying does not mean that I am creating something non-existent to make my statement, “the ocean has fish” true! That is precisely what you seem to be saying; that we are making up the meaning of “is” in order to create the meaning we want!
“heis gar Theos” means nothing in Greek if the verb “estin” is not necessarily implied by either the context or syntax. And the English translation would be even more meaningless is no verb is found or intended in the Greek!

Believe what you want, that is your prerogative, but it is not an informed belief, and I have done all I can to dissuade you of your error. My shoes are now dustless and I leave you to your own recognizance.

May the grace of God enlighten your mind and heart,

Doug
implicit means you did not say it, therefore, whatever "it" is, does not exist in your sentence.
Your concept of shark being implicit in the ocean misses the actual issue.
We are not speaking about the idea that certain physical objects while existing, can merely be implied
We are talking about the construction of a sentence. If a word is explicitly in a sentence, then it exists there
If someone believes a word is implicit in the sentence, the idea is present, but the word is not actually present

I am wondering why anyone, without some kind of agenda, would not recognize that the verb is does not actually exist in the sentence
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
implicit means you did not say it, therefore, whatever "it" is, does not exist in your sentence.
Your concept of shark being implicit in the ocean misses the actual issue.
We are not speaking about the idea that certain physical objects while existing, can merely be implied
We are talking about the construction of a sentence. If a word is explicitly in a sentence, then it exists there
If someone believes a word is implicit in the sentence, the idea is present, but the word is not actually present

I am wondering why anyone, without some kind of agenda, would not recognize that the verb is does not actually exist in the sentence
No, implicit means that though the verb is not explicitly stated, its presence, and more to the point, its meaning is implied, and that strongly or, in the case of a verb, necessarily!

You are the one with the agenda, Seth. The man Jesus Christ is our mediator presently, and to deny that is to deny any present remedy to being reconciled with God! My only agenda in this conversation is to persuade you to understanding this truth- for your sake, not mine!

Implicit

ADJECTIVE
implied though not plainly expressed.
"comments seen as implicit criticism of the policies"
synonyms:
implied · indirect · inferred · understood · hinted · [more]
(implicit in)
essentially or very closely connected with; always to be found in.
"the values implicit in the school ethos"
synonyms:
inherent · intrinsic · incorporated · inseparable · inbuilt · [more]
with no qualification or question; absolute.
"an implicit faith in God"
synonyms:
absolute · complete · entire · total · wholehearted · perfect · [more]
mathematics
(of a function) not expressed directly in terms of independent variables.


Doug
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2Co 6:1 NKJ)

We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you as means to a decreed end that you believe in irresistible grace and not in true personal responsibility. (No Bible Ever)
Umm...., that does not really answer my question
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
And you can’t make a theological point that Jesus is no longer our mediator when 3 different passages say that he is our mediator and not was our mediator. You are doing the same thing that you said we are going . Why are you doing that ?
So you say "and." Is that your way of acknowledging I am right about the missing verb and making a doctrine about the tense of a verb that is not there?
That is at least one step forward.
Now let us go back to a primary argument that I have told you about and referenced a lexicon and sent you to verses in the Bible. What is a mediator? What do the definitions of the Greek word tell us. how do the verses use the word?
Did you look at the verses I sent you to so we could discuss them?
You claim to be interested in scripture, maybe you are. I agree that is where we will find truth
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And you can’t make a theological point that Jesus is no longer our mediator when 3 different passages say that he is our mediator and not was our mediator. You are doing the same thing that you said we are going . Why are you doing that ?
Notice in his response to you, that he didn't answer your question; but used a tactic I call 'taking the Steering Wheel away from you'. It's like a Driver's Ed car which has steering wheels on both sides of the Car; one for you the Student, and one for him the Teacher. Keeping him 'on task' is a full-time job...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
No, implicit means that though the verb is not explicitly stated, its presence, and more to the point, its meaning is implied, and that strongly or, in the case of a verb, necessarily!

You are the one with the agenda, Seth. The man Jesus Christ is our mediator presently, and to deny that is to deny any present remedy to being reconciled with God! My only agenda in this conversation is to persuade you to understanding this truth- for your sake, not mine!

Implicit

ADJECTIVE
implied though not plainly expressed.
"comments seen as implicit criticism of the policies"
synonyms:
implied · indirect · inferred · understood · hinted · [more]
(implicit in)
essentially or very closely connected with; always to be found in.
"the values implicit in the school ethos"
synonyms:
inherent · intrinsic · incorporated · inseparable · inbuilt · [more]
with no qualification or question; absolute.
"an implicit faith in God"
synonyms:
absolute · complete · entire · total · wholehearted · perfect · [more]
mathematics
(of a function) not expressed directly in terms of independent variables.


Doug
The gist of your argument: despite there being no verb in the Greek statement, the verb can be analyzed as to how it is being used.
Now this is different from I what say, that despite the verb missing, the sentence can be analyzed, but no doctrinal points should be made derived from the tense of the non-existent verb.
Also, in other verses where there is a verb present, it looks to me to be expressing an equality, as opposed to a current occurrence or state.

Another note: I communicated that "implicit" meant not literally expressed and your first response is "No."
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
I just do not understand why he keeps on doing this because I want to know about the verb and why he is changing the meaning of the present tense verb in the sentence . I want him to answer the grammar question is all .
He's going out of his way to avoid answering you for the reason it would give away the Candy Store...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Can you explain what a present tense verb means and how it refers to something in the past, the present or the future ?
I may have responded to this already, but you also may just be asking it again.
A present tense verb in English has a few uses. I doubt I will get them all, but here are three examples and a short description

1. He is walking to work - present tense walking means he is currently or regularly walking to work. By that It could be the answer to two different questions. How is he getting to work these days? or What is he doing at the moment?

2. He is tall - this is a current condition

3. Time is money - this is not an action or a condition. It is a statement about perceived truth and despite there being a present tense verb, it does not indicate something that happens or is happening.

Also, you ask why i am changing the verb. And the answer is there is no verb in the statement we are looking at. How can i change something that does not exist? You have avoided the discussion about these ideas in reference to 1 tim 2:5. because you have refused to answer the issues related to that verse, I have not yet moved on to the other verses where the verb is present. But if I could ever get you to deal with 1 Tim 2:5 I would be happy to move on, Plus I gave you other verses on mediator in preparation for moving on
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
English grammar does have some implicit words, I was trying to think of one, imperative statements are one example.

(You) Go eat all the ice cream!

According to his logic this sentence would have no subject since it is implied.
Yes, and all of us agree on that. Language is fluid and has a variety of ways to express ideas. I assume this is true in all sophisticated languages.
 
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