Election

Theo1689

Well-known member
When the Bible tells the reader to be reconciled, it means, stop being God's enemy

Do you understand the difference between "active" voice and "passive" voice?

Active: "Tom threw the ball" (Tom is the one doing the action).

Passive: "The ball was thrown by Tom" (the ball is not doing the action).
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I hope that is not the case and what is going on here but it kinda seems that way.
I never dodge questions here. I will always give you a straight answer if you are one who I can see is being honest.
With some posters after a multitude of dishonest and attacking posts, I will change my method.
So far, with you, I am just giving direct answers, looking for honest responses to specifically those questions
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I never dodge questions here.

You always dodge questions here.

I will always give you a straight answer if you are one who I can see is being honest.
With some posters after a multitude of dishonest and attacking posts, I will change my method.

You accuse ANYONE who asks you questions of being dishonest.
You refuse to answer my questions, or civic's questions.
And now you've accused Johnny of being dishonest, and being a "secret Calvinist".
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I never dodge questions here. I will always give you a straight answer if you are one who I can see is being honest.
With some posters after a multitude of dishonest and attacking posts, I will change my method.
So far, with you, I am just giving direct answers, looking for honest responses to specifically those questions
Okay...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Yes there is in Hebrews 8:6. That is what I’m talking about .
So why did you switch verses without acknowledging the facts about 1 tim 2:5?
So sure, I will talk about Heb 8:6 and connect it to Gal 3:9
Heb 8:6 says that Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant which has been enacted.
What is the better covenant? The New Testament agreement of salvation by faith
What does it mean that it has been enacted? That it is in place and has no further need to be mediated/changed

Then look at Gal 3:9 speaking of Moses and the Old Covenant, the law. The verse says the law was ordered/ordained thru the hand of a mediator (which was Moses) and that it would stay in force until Jesus came. When it speaks of Moses as the mediator thru whom the law was ordered, it is obvious Moses died and could not carry on any ministry related to the law after he died, therefore being a mediator was his role when the law was being received. Moses was mediating between man and God
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You continue to give your theology when I asked a simple question about the grammar . What does the present tense verb mean in Hebrew 8:6. Why are you not answering that simple question about the meaning of that verb ?

ἐστί​

Transliteration
esti (Key)
Pronunciation
es-tee'
speaker3_a.svg

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Third person singular present indicative of εἰμί (G1510)
Greek Inflections of ἐστί [?]
mGNT
0x in 0 unique form(s) TR
926x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
0x in 0 unique form(s)
ἐστὶν — 114x
ἐστίν — 81x
ἐστιν — 586x
ἔστιν — 141x
Ἔστιν — 4x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
KJV Translation Count — Total: 900x
The KJV translates Strong's G2076 in the following manner: is (744x), are (51x), was (29x), be (25x), have (11x), not translated (15x), miscellaneous (25x), variations of 'is' (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. "he/she/it is" (third person singular of 'to be')
    Used with 3739 in the following verses: Mar 3:17; 7:11, 34; 12:42; 15:15; Eph 6:17; Col 1:24; Hbr 7:2; Rev 21:8, 17. These are listed under number 3603.

 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
I have asked quite a few times for you to answer the grammar specifically the verb in Hebrews 8:6 and what that means regarding the present tense. I’m still waiting for an answer to that question not an answer to theology or mediator .
here is one issue with that. While I am able to look at Bible helps and can easily point out when a verb is not in a sentence, as in 1 Tim 2:5, when it comes to analyzing verbs that are actually in the text, that will not be my strong suit and I have to rely on Bible commentaries and reputable English translation.
So as to Hebrews 8:6 and the present tense verb there, the helps say that verb can have several meanings depending on context. "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present" Our English verb "to be" has a similar range of meanings, The NASV translates "He is also the mediator of a better covenant which has been enacted"
Just as I told you early in the chat, Frank Lloyd Wright is the architect of many great buildings, despite the fact he did those past tense and is, I believe, dead now, we still say he is the architect. And we still say Jesus is the mediator of the better covenant
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So why did you switch verses without acknowledging the facts about 1 tim 2:5?

Because you are WRONG about 1 Tim. 2:5.

But since you refuse to accept correction, so let's agree to disagree and move onto a more explicit passage that doesn't have the verb only "implied".

So sure, I will talk about Heb 8:6 and connect it to Gal 3:9
Heb 8:6 says that Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant which has been enacted.
What is the better covenant? The New Testament agreement of salvation by faith
What does it mean that it has been enacted? That it is in place and has no further need to be mediated/changed

What is the tense of the verb "is"?
You keep looking for excuses to deny it.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You continue to give your theology when I asked a simple question about the grammar . What does the present tense verb mean in Hebrew 8:6. Why are you not answering that simple question about the meaning of that verb ?
I gave you a fuller answer, so you can look at that post here. but just to point out, when you ask what a word means and you specify the context, Heb 8:6, it is you who is directing the conversation toward doctrine. If you simply ask what does that Greek verb mean, then it is divorced from doctrine. But as soon as you want to know what it means in context, you are pointing at doctrine.
Still. you should find an answer in the other post i just did
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I gave you a fuller answer, so you can look at that post here. but just to point out, when you ask what a word means and you specify the context, Heb 8:6, it is you who is directing the conversation toward doctrine. If you simply ask what does that Greek verb mean, then it is divorced from doctrine. But as soon as you want to know what it means in context, you are pointing at doctrine.
Still. you should find an answer in the other post i just did
Isn't Scripture Good for Doctrine?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So is means past not present . Why did the writer not use the verb was if it was in the past instead of is ?

Was the writer purposely trying to confuse his readers ?
Are you saying that you did not actually read what I spent time writing? Something you asked for and then ignored?
Obviously my post says nothing about "is" being past. You had that in your mind before you read the post and then pretend I said that.
How do we have a conversation if you keep pretending I am saying things that are not in my post?

As far as confusion, it appears to me that is your goal here, to intentionally misrepresent what is said, but who knows, like rverend suggested, maybe we can keep you in the car until we reach the destination, the truth
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The gist of your argument:
There isn’t a verb here…the, “there is” is implicit and understood without it being written! If you expect me to understand your meaning, why don’t you understand Paul’s meaning?

The gist of my argument is presently and actively saying/meaning that the meaning of a passage, be it explicit or implicit, is what we draw theological belief from! Whether the verb is there or not, the meaning of the verb is evident and necessarily present. If I understand what is being said, I can draw conclusions from the statement and correlate that conclusion with other conclusions to establish a overarching principle of belief.

Your argument is self-defeating because you employ the principal you’re seeing to disavow!

Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
There isn’t a verb here…the, “there is” is implicit and understood without it being written! If you expect me to understand your meaning, why don’t you understand Paul’s meaning?

The gist of my argument is presently and actively saying/meaning that the meaning of a passage, be it explicit or implicit, is what we draw theological belief from! Whether the verb is there or not, the meaning of the verb is evident and necessarily present. If I understand what is being said, I can draw conclusions from the statement and correlate that conclusion with other conclusions to establish a overarching principle of belief.

Your argument is self-defeating because you employ the principal you’re seeing to disavow!

Doug
I keep wondering what makes this so difficult for you to understand. You seem to half get it.
Yes, for an English translation the "is" is needed to make the thought coherent in English, but that does not mean you can go back to the Greek and make doctrine based on the verb, when the verb does not exist there.
Again, why is this so hard to grasp?
Now if someone who was a Greek expert in subtle Greek communication, looks at the Greek statement in question and determines it is trying to express that the mediator is doing ongoing mediation, that would be different.
But from the beginning no one has addressed point # 1. What is a mediator, and what did Christ mediate and when?
Many here think the term is interchangeable with intercessor. including you. A mediator is not an intercessor. But like intercessor a mediator is a category of intermediary
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You are skipping the step. The grammar in the sentence should precede doctrine or ideas. I’m asking for first step which is identifying the verb and its meaning in Heb 8:6. Doctrine or ideas follows the grammar it does not precede it . Why are you having such a hard time with this ?
I guess you refused to go look at the post where I talked about the verb in Heb 8:6 and possible meanings of the verb?
YOu are difficult for me. you ask me to do something then won't look at it. Why do you do that?
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
I keep wondering what makes this so difficult for you to understand. You seem to half get it.
Yes, for an English translation the "is" is needed to make the thought coherent in English, but that does not mean you can go back to the Greek and make doctrine based on the verb, when the verb does not exist there.
Again, why is this so hard to grasp?
Now if someone who was a Greek expert in subtle Greek communication, looks at the Greek statement in question and determines it is trying to express that the mediator is ongoing mediation, that would be different.
But from the beginning noone has addressed point # 1. What is a mediator, and what did Christ mediate and when?
Many here think the term is interchangeable with intercessor. including you
Let him have the steering wheel for a while...
 
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