Election

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
That you would ask this question, yet proclaim yourself to be on the "high ground" regarding English rules, to send anyone who disagrees with you "to go to your local school or college and ask an English teacher you trust", when you NEVER provide any evidence to support your claims, is just astonishing.

I don't have a degree in English, but I've been using the language for 57 years, and I've been reading books in English for about 53 (?) years. And when I did my primary training in Greek, the textbook I used put a GREAT amount of emphasis in teaching English grammar, as a precursor to teaching Greek grammar, because let's face it, English grammar has been put on the back burner in North American schools for the past 20-30 years.

In the school where I teach, we have a significant number of ESL classrooms. And both the ESL instructors and the credit course English teachers come to me with questions about grammar, because they recognize I know something about them.

So yes, the following pairs of sentences are semantically equivalent.

"I am breathing."
"I am presently breathing."

"I was a student in high school."
"I was a student in high school in the past."

"I will be a university graduate."
"I will be a university graduate in the future."

There is no difference in meaning between the two sentences in each group.
The latter sentence may be thought of as an "amplified" version of the former sentence, and each addition is FULLY justified based on the verb TENSE.

THAT'S. HOW. VERB. TENSES. WORK.
This was really helpful , thank you.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
They all support my view, that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly.
But they do not address my actual issue, you cannot make a doctrinal point about a verb tense when there is no verb
No it is not! If you are familiar with three languages, Seth, I strongly suggest that you take that aptitude for language and study Greek instead of using Japanese as a parallel to Koine Greek! Greek syntax is not English or Japanese or whatever other language you may be familiar.

You would do well to either put up or shut up regarding your assertion "that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly." Theo has quite decimated your argument over "is", and until you can cite a reputable scholar that counters his explanation, you will hold no credibility to be taken seriously. (I mean, if I'm agreeing with Theo, this is a no brainer, absolute undeniable fact that cannot be dismissed without serious bias. Your argument is akin to the earth being flat, or the moon landings were a hoax!)

This said, I still maintain that your "is", is a rabbit trail argument, and you have yet to present any proof of your denial of my arguments validity with regards to scripture and language.


Doug
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
No it is not! If you are familiar with three languages, Seth, I strongly suggest that you take that aptitude for language and study Greek instead of using Japanese as a parallel to Koine Greek! Greek syntax is not English or Japanese or whatever other language you may be familiar.

You would do well to either put up or shut up regarding your assertion "that the word IS is needed to express the Greek properly." Theo has quite decimated your argument over "is", and until you can cite a reputable scholar that counters his explanation, you will hold to credibility to be taken seriously. (I mean, if I'm agreeing with Theo, this is a no brainer, absolute undeniable fact that cannot be dismissed without serious bias. Your argument is akin to the earth being flat, or the moon landings were a hoax!)

This said, I still maintain that your "is", is a rabbit trail argument, and you have yet to present any proof of your denial of my arguments validity with regards to scripture and language.


Doug
Sorry Doug, I thought I responded to everything you said.
Though on the other side you never responded to what a mediator actually is.
I wonder how you think you closed the case on this without once addressing what a court mediator does.

And again, Civic has been making an argument about the word "is" for years. But there is a number there, the number one, and no verb.
So why you want to accept a doctrine based on a non-existent verb baffles me.
 

civic

Well-known member
Sorry Doug, I thought I responded to everything you said.
Though on the other side you never responded to what a mediator actually is.
I wonder how you think you closed the case on this without once addressing what a court mediator does.

And again, Civic has been making an argument about the word "is" for years. But there is a number there, the number one, and no verb.
So why you want to accept a doctrine based on a non-existent verb baffles me.
The verb in Hebrews 8:6 is estin which is a present active indicative.


Present Tense
The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.

Game over seth you lose.
 

civic

Well-known member
Yes, great catch. Didn't think that one thru
But do you really want to be like a Calvinist who points out spelling errors instead of responding to the substance of posts?
Speaking of substance . Let’s see you address these questions on the present tense Verb estin which is in the present active indicative mood. Let’s test your knowledge of both Greek and English below .

1 John 4:7 says that
God is Love.

Is God love ? Yes or no

Is God love now ? Yes or no

Did God stop being love ? Yes or no

hope this helps !!!
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Sorry Doug, I thought I responded to everything you said.
Though on the other side you never responded to what a mediator actually is.
I wonder how you think you closed the case on this without once addressing what a court mediator does.

I believe I have on several occasions, including here!

And again, Civic has been making an argument about the word "is" for years. But there is a number there, the number one, and no verb.
So why you want to accept a doctrine based on a non-existent verb baffles me.

To the Greek reader, the intransitive verb is assumed due to the εἷς γὰρ Θεός. εἷς, is 1) an adjective, which tells us something about the noun to which it is predicated. Thus the reader would instinctively say the noun/subject (predicate nominative) "is" X. 2) The Greek has εἷς as the first word in the sentence, which many times is an indicator of the importance of the word in the author's mind. It reads very similar to the Shema of Duet 6:4, in which אֶחָֽד is identical to εἷς and the verb is implied. "Hear O Israel...the Lord is one!" I cannot help but think that this was part of Paul's thinking in 1 Tim 5:2.

In English, however, to write "one for God" is meaningless without a verb written into the phrase. Does it mean "one is/was/ for God"? Is "one" an adjective or a nominative? It is the Greek syntax that determines how we should write it in English, namely, "For God is one!"

Finally, we do not accept doctrine based on a non-existent verb because the verb is syntactically implied in Greek, and because other scriptures (Heb 8:6 et al) tell us explicitly that Christ is a present tense reality mediator.


Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
The verb in Hebrews 8:6 is estin which is a present active indicative.


Present Tense
The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.

Game over seth you lose.
Don't you want to address what you have been saying for years? There is one mediator, with the verb IS in present tense?
YOu have dogged me about this regularly for years and now you are all done without a peep?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I believe I have on several occasions, including here!



To the Greek reader, the intransitive verb is assumed due to the εἷς γὰρ Θεός. εἷς, is 1) an adjective, which tells us something about the noun to which it is predicated. Thus the reader would instinctively say the noun/subject (predicate nominative) "is" X. 2) The Greek has εἷς as the first word in the sentence, which many times is an indicator of the importance of the word in the author's mind. It reads very similar to the Shema of Duet 6:4, in which אֶחָֽד is identical to εἷς and the verb is implied. "Hear O Israel...the Lord is one!" I cannot help but think that this was part of Paul's thinking in 1 Tim 5:2.

In English, however, to write "one for God" is meaningless without a verb written into the phrase. Does it mean "one is/was/ for God"? Is "one" an adjective or a nominative? It is the Greek syntax that determines how we should write it in English, namely, "For God is one!"

Finally, we do not accept doctrine based on a non-existent verb because the verb is syntactically implied in Greek, and because other scriptures (Heb 8:6 et al) tell us explicitly that Christ is a present tense reality mediator.


Doug
No. the fact is everyone was talking about the present tense "to be" verb and how that proved Civic's point, until I pointed out there was no verb, just a number. He has now abandoned that which he has dogged me with for years, and moved on to another verse. But once he thinks people have forgotten, he'll bring it up again.
By the way, are you even aware of why Civic was so hot for that non-existent "to be" verb to be present tense? Because it, for him without a doubt, proved that Jesus was still mediating our covenant with God. That of course is nonsense. I did not need the absence of a verb to know that? because I read the definition of the Greek word, and it is mediator, and i know what a mediator does in court.

So yes, you can bring in Heb 8:6 and we could discuss that context. In fact i will have to study it more in order to do so.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Don't you want to address what you have been saying for years? There is one mediator, with the verb IS in present tense?
YOu have dogged me about this regularly for years and now you are all done without a peep?

civic, Johnnybgood, TibiasDad, and I have all been trying to get you to address Heb. 8:6 for over a day now.

You keep playing games (like falsely claiming Johnnybgood is a Calvinist).
So any time you're interested in addressing the issue, nobody's stopping you.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
civic, Johnnybgood, TibiasDad, and I have all been trying to get you to address Heb. 8:6 for over a day now.

You keep playing games (like falsely claiming Johnnybgood is a Calvinist).
So any time you're interested in addressing the issue, nobody's stopping you.
ok
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No. the fact is everyone was talking about the present tense "to be" verb and how that proved Civic's point, until I pointed out there was no verb, just a number. He has now abandoned that which he has dogged me with for years, and moved on to another verse. But once he thinks people have forgotten, he'll bring it up again.

Yes, it was you pointing out that brought this conversation to another level of absurdity. My guess is that, if he has abandoned it, it is because there is no use conversing with you, but that would only be my opinion. I'll let @civic speak for himself.

By the way, are you even aware of why Civic was so hot for that non-existent "to be" verb to be present tense? Because it, for him without a doubt, proved that Jesus was still mediating our covenant with God. That of course is nonsense. I did not need the absence of a verb to know that? because I read the definition of the Greek word, and it is mediator, and i know what a mediator does in court.

If the meaning of present tense is apparent, even without the verb being written, then the meaning is the same as if it are written. You have admitted that "is" is the correct meaning, so the meaning of the present tense is necessarily valid, which makes your objections moot!


So yes, you can bring in Heb 8:6 and we could discuss that context. In fact i will have to study it more in order to do so.

There is nothing to study. The present tense verb is the simplest of things to understand.


Doug
 
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