Election

[TibiasDad]

I am surprised that you have not noticed that I am not faulting the English translations. I have stated it many times, but what is typical in this forum is that posters try to correct things you have never said, and they ignore what you do say

You are essentially saying that the English is not indicative of the Greek because the Greek doesn't have an explicitly stated present tense verb in 1 Tim 2:5. And therefore, we cannot use the English as a basis for theological arguments because the Greek doesn't have the verb.

But we say that the Greek does have the implicit presence of estin, and that this gives the meaning that is correctly rendered in all English translations. If Greeks don't need to see the verb written to understand the meaning, then why must English readers need to have it in order to understand the meaning sufficiently to make theological arguments?

Heb 8:6 has the verb, and thus confirms the theological argument that mediation is a present tense ongoing action. Theo has irrefutably expressed the simplest, first year Greek facts about the aspect of the present tense in Greek meaning actively continuing action at the present moment of time. We cannot conclude anything less than that one who is a mediator is actively continuing to mediate. Language, logic, and educated learning mandates it!


Doug

 

[Sethproton]

You just did it again . I’ve been asking about Heb 8:6. You asked me yesterday what verse I wanted to discuss and the only one I mentioned was Heb 8:6. You keep changing the passage not me.

yes, now you want to stick to 8:6 and I said ok, and I sent you a post talking about present tense verbs . As far as I can see, no response from you, Though another poster did respond to that post

 

[Sethproton]

@Sethproton this was from Saturday and still no answer because you keep avoiding it with circular arguments

That is not true, i made a post which you never read, though it was a response to your post. Like I told you another poster did respond to it

 

[Sethproton]

You are essentially saying that the English is not indicative of the Greek because the Greek doesn't have an explicitly stated present tense verb in 1 Tim 2:5. And therefore, we cannot use the English as a basis for theological arguments because the Greek doesn't have the verb.

But we say that the Greek does have the implicit presence of estin, and that this gives the meaning that is correctly rendered in all English translations. If Greeks don't need to see the verb written to understand the meaning, then why must English readers need to have it in order to understand the meaning sufficiently to make theological arguments?

Heb 8:6 has the verb, and thus confirms the theological argument that mediation is a present tense ongoing action. Theo has irrefutably expressed the simplest, first year Greek facts about the aspect of the present tense in Greek meaning actively continuing action at the present moment of time. We cannot conclude anything less than that one who is a mediator is actively continuing to mediate. Language, logic, and educated learning mandates it!


Doug

I wrote a paragraph answer and then realized I have nothing new to say, so I deleted it. I have given an answer for every argument you raise here. I feel that I my arguments are mostly being either ignored or misrepresented, And I have about run out of patience with the Calvinist posing as undecided,

 

[Sethproton]

No you made a circular argument and did not define the verb in heb 8:6 from any source. All you did was present your ideas on mediator .

Since you don't know what a circular argument is, most likely you are wrong.
And sorry you missed the post on Heb 8:6, if you did actually miss it

 

[Sethproton]

It’s both circular argument and deflecting .

Again, since you have no idea what a circular argument is, it is strange you would even use the term

 

[Sethproton]

No you do not know what the present tense means which is why you have not answered the verb question in heb 8:6. And I asked you if you agreed with the 3 dictionary definitions I cited with sources and you still have not answered and it is now the 5th time I have asked you sethproton. Why are you not answering that simple question?

Oxford dictionary

1. a tense expressing an action that is currently going on or habitually performed, or a state that currently or generally exists.
   "I'm using the present tense"
2. 
   Webster’s
   
   the tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time and is used of what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true
3. 
   
   
4. Grammarly-The present tense is used to describe things that are happening right now, or things that are continuous

Dude, how can anyone keep up with you jumping from topic to topic back and forth. You were accusing me of circular reasoning, now you jump back to this. You make my head spin.
But i will respond to this dictionary entry again, #2 says that the present tense can be used to express what is necessarily true. That is what we have in 1 Tim 2:5, Jesus being the Mediator is a truth, as opposed to being based on a current action.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Fact 1. This a serious discussion of the serious nature of the scriptures.

Fact 2. Serious people debate in good faith as is their duty before the Lord.

Fact 3. The truth of the matter is that to some people, the discussion of inspired scriptures is nothing more than a game.

Fact 4. We are not required to feed foolishness after we have made every good faith effort to correct it.

Fact 5. Jesus offered us advice on the best course of action.

Matthew 10:14
English Standard Version
"And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town."

Fact 6. There are people to reach who need Jesus. There is nothing more to be done here.

 

[Sethproton]

Fact 1. This a serious discussion of the serious nature of the scriptures.

Fact 2. Serious people debate in good faith as is their duty before the Lord.

Fact 3. The truth of the matter is that to some people, the discussion of inspired scriptures is nothing more than a game.

Fact 4. We are not required to feed foolishness after we have made every good faith effort to correct it.

Fact 5. Jesus offered us advice on the best course of action.

Matthew 10:14
English Standard Version
"And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town."

Fact 6. There are people to reach who need Jesus. There is nothing more to be done here.

DO NOT insult Rule 12

 

[ReverendRV]

You have no idea what you are talking about concerning circular reasoning. you are just making up stuff to sound like you know something.
I am asking a few questions to someone who understands Greek, and once I hear back from him, i may get back to you.
By the way, you know the saying "If it quacks like a duck, it is a duck"? Everything you say, your style of avoiding points and making negative personal comments, all that is the way calvinists talk here.
You can deny what your position is, but I hear you quacking in every post

Are you over at the Biblical Languages Forum again?

 

[Sethproton]

Are you over at the Biblical Languages Forum again?

You did not notice? Another poster took the question about verbs over there then told me he had done it, So yes. I went to see what the result was.

 

[Sethproton]

If they agree over there in that forum with all the translations I doubt it will change his mind about 1 Tim 2:5.

Again you prove to me you are not paying attention to much being said, This has been an interesting time to get to know what kind of person you are,

 

[ReverendRV]

If they agree over there in that forum with all the translations I doubt it will change his mind about 1 Tim 2:5.

In the Past, when we went over there over a dispute, it was a lot like it is here; they were divided between Camps too. The Greeksperts were either Orthodox or Unorthodox; and go figure, they read it the way they wanted to...

What if he finds one who agrees with him? After all, isn't that what we all do? In our case, we look for Orthodox Greeksperts...

 

[ReverendRV]

The same is true about you with all your demeaning comments about me. I have not once said anything about you as a person .

I for one understand about wanting to be Nice. I try real hard, but I fail at being nice. I think you've noticed he is Willing to talk to you because of it...

 

[Sethproton]

The same is true about you with all your demeaning comments about me. I have not once said anything about you as a person . Everyone here has treated me with kindness except you.

Matthew 5:46-48
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

I must admit I have not done my best with you, so i apologize for whatever I may have said that was hurtful

 

[Sethproton]

I do not understand being treated like that when all I’m doing is asking questions which he offered to answer any ones I had about any verse. How can a person lead a bible study when so many people ask question all the time if it upsets you and irritates you. Leaders are suppose to be patient , kind and loving.

Yes, you are right. This environment can bring out bad behavior. I tend to be a direct confrontive person, especially when it comes to the Bible. I can be patient with people for quite a while, as I was with you as you played games with me, but eventually I get irritated at game playing and just say it as it is.

 

[Sethproton]

That is weird I’m asking real questions which you encouraged and you think I am playing games. Maybe you really did not mean that and you are playing games with me.

So far I have participated on 3 or 4 forums asking questions and you are the only one who has said I am playing games. No one else thinks that except you sethproton.

Come on Johnny. You would ask me questions and then ignore my answers and then later ask the same questions again, which I would answer, and then...on and on. I don't know how anyone could consider that type of behavior as honest communication, where you just ignore what you do not want to respond to. I see you also went over to the language thread. Maybe something interesting will be said there

 

[ReverendRV]

I do not understand being treated like that when all I’m doing is asking questions which he offered to answer any ones I had about any verse. How can a person lead a bible study when so many people ask question all the time if it upsets you and irritates you. Leaders are suppose to be patient , kind and loving.

Please, for your own sake; do not look at CARM Forums as a Bible study. You can take lessons from CARM's School...

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes, you are right. This environment can bring out bad behavior. I tend to be a direct confrontive person, especially when it comes to the Bible. I can be patient with people for quite a while, as I was with you as you played games with me, but eventually I get irritated at game playing and just say it as it is.

Look at it like this Seth; you're Fishing with the wrong Bait. You're casting a pretty Lure at Johnny, the Lure you like; but he's hungry for a Worm, and won't bite. This Fish is telling you what kind of Bait he likes; Exegesis of the Verse...

Anyone who loves to fish will understand; become a Fisher of Men, right? If you don't use the right Bait, you really don't want to be a Fisher of Men. It reminds me of when I was young. I went to a Trout Farm and found out I couldn't help but to catch a Fish. So to keep on fishing, I reeled in the hook so fast, I couldn't catch any Fish; I was playing around...

 

[ReverendRV]

The reason I even brought it up was when I asked him how long he has been a Christian he said over 50 years and leads a bible study. So I’m sure he gets asked questions there. I have been in a couple of study groups and everyone normally asks all kinds of questions from many different perspectives and the leaders I have seen are polite in responding and if they are not sure about an answer they say they will get back to them on the question.

Sorry, I missed that...