Election

Theo1689

Well-known member
I keep wondering what makes this so difficult for you to understand. You seem to half get it.
Yes, for an English translation the "is" is needed to make the thought coherent in English, but that does not mean you can go back to the Greek and make doctrine based on the verb, when the verb does not exist there.
Again, why is this so hard to grasp?

To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper, "Our rejection of your errant assumption is based on factors other than difficulty".

You are simply wrong, Seth.

The verb, "is", IS implied in 1 Tim. 2:5.
And it is implied in the PRESENT tense.

The verb, "is" is EXPLICITLY found in Heb. 8:6, which you refuse to address.

Now if someone who was a Greek expert in subtle Greek communication, looks at the Greek statement in question and determines it is trying to express that the mediator is doing ongoing mediation, that would be different.

There is nothing "subtle" about it.
In FIRST YEAR Greek studies, you learn that the "aspect" of a verb (continuous, punctiliar, iterative, ongoing, etc.) is significantly more important than it is in the English. And since you have ZERO knowledge of "the Greek", you wouldn't know that.

And the aspect of the PRESENT tense in the Greek is "continuous". This is actually quite significant doctrinally, when we look at passages about people "believing" (present tense, continuous", in contrast to those who "believed" (aorist, undefined aspect) in the past.

You simply don't have a leg to stand on.

Many here think the term is interchangeable with intercessor. including you. A mediator is not an intercessor. But like intercessor a mediator is a category of intermediary

Again, you are 100% wrong.
A mediator IS an "intercessor".
To "mediate" means to be "in the middle".
The prefix "inter" from "intercessor" likewise describes an "inbetween" or "middle" position.

In that stereotypical example where parents are fighting, and not talking to each other, and dad says, "Billy, tell your mother to pass me the potatoes", the child is acting as an "intercessor" and a "mediator".
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Is means when that was written He was still a mediator many years after the cross . Jesus was in heaven at the time when 1 Tim 2 and Hebrews was written . So He would also still be a man according to that same verse . Do you agree ?
There are 7 verses in the NT mentioning Mediator. when you study all 7, you get a clearer understanding that Jesus mediated the new covenant once in His blood
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
That was what i thought too, but since nobody wants to stay on track, you didn't even read the post I gave you about Heb 8:6, i figured I will just roll with everyone else and talk about what they bring up. Did yu not notice that I did not bring up the topic, I just rolled with it
Are you saying you do not see what tibiasdad, reverend, dizerner, theo1689 , civic and other posters have said and who all agree with the present tense verb ? Are you saying you do not see their point on the grammar and definition of the present tense verb ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That was what i thought too, but since nobody wants to stay on track, you didn't even read the post I gave you about Heb 8:6,

On what basis do you (uncharitably) assume that he "didn't even read the post"?

I'm willing to bet that:
1) He DID read it;
2) it didn't say what you claimed it did;
3) he was offering to read it a second time, and give you a chance to see if you made any points,
4) and then you were too lazy to link to the post for him to read;
5) so you could continue to falsely claim you addressed the issue, when you didn't.

There is a "search" function at the top right to screen Seth. You presumably know the gist of what you wrote. So you could throw in one or two key words, limit the search to only your posts, and you should have little problem finding it. I've done it many times for my own posts. But you are apparently too lazy to do that.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper, "Our rejection of your errant assumption is based on factors other than difficulty".

You are simply wrong, Seth.

The verb, "is", IS implied in 1 Tim. 2:5.
And it is implied in the PRESENT tense.

The verb, "is" is EXPLICITLY found in Heb. 8:6, which you refuse to address.



There is nothing "subtle" about it.
In FIRST YEAR Greek studies, you learn that the "aspect" of a verb (continuous, punctiliar, iterative, ongoing, etc.) is significantly more important than it is in the English. And since you have ZERO knowledge of "the Greek", you wouldn't know that.

And the aspect of the PRESENT tense in the Greek is "continuous". This is actually quite significant doctrinally, when we look at passages about people "believing" (present tense, continuous", in contrast to those who "believed" (aorist, undefined aspect) in the past.

You simply don't have a leg to stand on.



Again, you are 100% wrong.
A mediator IS an "intercessor".
To "mediate" means to be "in the middle".
The prefix "inter" from "intercessor" likewise describes an "inbetween" or "middle" position.

In that stereotypical example where parents are fighting, and not talking to each other, and dad says, "Billy, tell your mother to pass me the potatoes", the child is acting as an "intercessor" and a "mediator".
This is a great post especially since you compared it with the present tense believing . Sethproton would have us believing it in the past not in the present.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Are you saying you do not see what tibiasdad, reverend, dizerner, theo1689 , civic and other posters have said and who all agree with the present tense verb ? Are you saying you do not see their point on the grammar and definition of the present tense verb ?
I am saying that there is no verb in the Greek. Nobody disputes that
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Really? And is that where you got the info that the missing verb is present tense?
But seriously, what greek expert are you speaking about?
Theo and Civic have both provided ample source materials, and I have supplied lexical sources as a lesser, but pertinent support. But logically speaking, every translation that I am aware of, and thus the Greek experts who translated them from Greek to English, are saying that is the meaning and intent of the Greek. They would not translate in English something that the Greek cannot/does not support.

I am not a Greek expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am able to generally comprehend what those who are tell me. The construction of εἷς γὰρ Θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, can mean nothing other than what has been translated for millennia!


Doug
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
@Sethproton here is a source I found using google. It was the first one.

Oxford dictionary
  1. a tense expressing an action that is currently going on or habitually performed, or a state that currently or generally exists.
    "I'm using the present tense"

  2. Webster’s

    the tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time and is used of what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true


  3. Grammarly-The present tense is used to describe things that are happening right now, or things that are continuous.
@Sethproton do you agree with these definitions. These are from 3 different dictionaries. Are they all wrong ?


Oxford dictionary
  1. a tense expressing an action that is currently going on or habitually performed, or a state that currently or generally exists.
    "I'm using the present tense"

  2. Webster’s

    the tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time and is used of what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true


  3. Grammarly-The present tense is used to describe things that are happening right now, or things that are continuous.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Theo and Civic have both provided ample source materials, and I have supplied lexical sources as a lesser, but pertinent support. But logically speaking, every translation that I am aware of, and thus the Greek experts who translated them from Greek to English, are saying that is the meaning and intent of the Greek. They would not translate in English something that the Greek cannot/does not support.

I am not a Greek expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am able to generally comprehend what those who are tell me. The construction of εἷς γὰρ Θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, can mean nothing other than what has been translated for millennia!


Doug
I am surprised that you have not noticed that I am not faulting the English translations. I have stated it many times, but what is typical in this forum is that posters try to correct things you have never said, and they ignore what you do say
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
@Sethproton do you agree with these definitions. These are from 4 different dictionaries. Are they all wrong ?


Oxford dictionary
  1. a tense expressing an action that is currently going on or habitually performed, or a state that currently or generally exists.
    "I'm using the present tense"

  2. Webster’s

    the tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time and is used of what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true


  3. Grammarly-The present tense is used to describe things that are happening right now, or things that are continuous.
of course I do not disagree with them. the fact you ask that tells me you pay little attention to what I post.
There are elements of the second definition that are exactly what I have been saying. Your post demonstrates that I am correct to see what i am seeing
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
I am surprised that you have not noticed that I am not faulting the English translations. I have stated it many times, but what is typical in this forum is that posters try to correct things you have never said, and they ignore what you do say
Now I can finally see what you are doing . You respond with circular arguments to try and prove your point. I just had an aha moment .
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
and if i wrote you a post that long you would claim it was too long

You know, if you can't read a post that is more than one or two screens long, then I'm guessing you've never read the Bible (which is FAR longer).

Maybe he's able to read longer (?) posts by me because they keep his attention, and are not nonsense?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
of course I do not disagree with them. the fact you ask that tells me you pay little attention to what I post.
There are elements of the second definition that are exactly what I have been saying. Your post demonstrates that I am correct to see what i am seeing
Of course you do not agree with them otherwise you would agree Heb 8:6 is saying Jesus still is our mediator not was our mediator. You are interpreting the Bible from your ideas and not allowing the text to determine your ideas. You are going about it backwards. I do not know any Christians who use that method of bible study. You are the first person I have met who does it that way.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Now I can finally see what you are doing . You respond with circular arguments to try and prove your point. I just had an aha moment .
My guess is you have no idea what a circular argument, as I have done nothing of the kind.
Maybe you should define what you mean by "circular argument" so we can discuss it
 
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