Election

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Actually, it is ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς; you cannot detach ἄνθρωπος from Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς. They are all nominative nouns.

"it is rendered "gave" because it is an aorist, not a present tense verb. As Wallace points out, it never completely loses its verb function, but it does not act as a regular verb. You are diminishing the adjetival function, if not erasing it completely to make it function the way you want it to function. If it is an adjective, then the primary function is as an adjective, not a natural verb.


Doug
It's more verbal the less general it is, and it's very particular. So one cannot dismiss the verbal force as you have.

Also, it's not an adjective. It's a participle. It's also not functioning as an adjective in any translation I have seen.

But that's not my evidence against your view. It's what happens to the syntax when one adds the same verb from 1 Ti 2:5ab.

If έστιν is added to ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς it becomes a predicate nominative and results in:

Christ Jesus [is] the man who gave himself....

But that becomes a separate sentence and not a dependent clause.

You described how you view the verse in a fuzzy way but you have not parsed it with your addition. Doing that shows it's not a possibility, at least it's not how any English bible renders it.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
@Theo1689, would you kindly check my argument for error. I say that the present tense of 1 Tim 2:5 extends to the ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, while the adjective, δοὺς in 2:6a simply enhances the identity of ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς who is presently the one mediator between God and mankind. Thank you,

Doug
Please do more than check the argument. Demonstrate how to parse it with a present tense to-be verb inserted into 1 Ti 2:5c.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
There's no grammatical reason I can see to separate anthropos as somehow past tense... it really seems quite bizarre, it's defining the mediator.

for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, (1Ti 2:5 YLT)

Paul seems in fact to be emphasizing that the mediator is one of the mediated.
One in Human Nature for sure...
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
What do you mean by particular? It is particular because it applies only to ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς.

Doug
I am quoting Wallace. He says that the amount of verbal force for the participle is higher when the participle has a non-generic referent.

That's why in this case we cannot consider it as a pure adjective. That's why our English versions render it as a verb (gave) and not an adjective (giving).

Do you agree that if it were a relative pronoun and finite verb you would interpret this differently? Well the fact that the articular participle is rendered as 'the one who gave' demonstrates that there is no functional difference.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
There's no grammatical reason I can see to separate anthropos as somehow past tense... it really seems quite bizarre, it's defining the mediator.

for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, (1Ti 2:5 YLT)

Paul seems in fact to be emphasizing that the mediator is one of the mediated.

Is that consistent with your theology? That the human Jesus needed a mediator? I did not know that. Why would he? He was and is perfect. The pre-fall Adam did not need a mediator, did he?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
The requirements were that He represented both parties ( God and man) therefor he is both God and man. That is what Jesus as mediator means throughout the book of Hebrews. That is one book I happen to know and have studied . So I am not buying into your view at all since Hebrews says he is still our present mediator . And the priest also must be human and he is now our high priest in heaven who intercedes on our behalf.
I do consider him to be presently mediating. The text is clear.

I believe I have demonstrated that the grammar cannot be proven to say he currently exists as a human being with flesh and blood.

In fact @John Milton, while he may believe this is true has stopped short of saying that the Greek grammar at 1 Ti 2:5-6 proves this.

And just to be clear, I don't claim that the grammar proves that he is not. That cannot be determined from this text.

As a result I don't bear the burden of proof.

And how can anyone say it has been met by those who agree with you when JM won't even address it directly?

Those who view it that way need to parse the verse and show what it says where they want a present tense verb to apply to 1 Ti 2:5c.

I am the only one who has done that and it results in a rendering that no English bible uses.

And, this point is not critical for me. BDAG says here that "man" refers to one who identifies with humanity, not that is part of humanity.

In my view the fact that he gave himself as a ransom while he was a human being and that he retains the memory of what humans go through firsthand is sufficient to satisfy everything Scripture says is necessary for that role.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do consider him to be presently mediating. The text is clear.
Well, that is half of the Battle; Seth disagrees with this. Since you're correct, he needs to agree with the Greek; right?

If he were to confront you about this, could you get through to him with the Greek?
 
Last edited:

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Then I have no idea why he does not take the Son as the present mediator. I would not think that those denominations would have an issue with that, do you?
Those Denominations don't; but he admits he's totally different from his Church. Why would someone so against most everything a Church teaches, become a Member there?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Are you sure he's a member?
Members usually have to agree to the doctrines taught, or at the very least agree not to teach contrary to them.
I'm not certain, but he's said he taught there; Civic would know for sure. I jumped to the conclusion he is a Member if he's a Teacher...
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Those Denominations don't; but he admits he's totally different from his Church. Why would someone so against most everything a Church teaches, become a Member there?
Born into it or likes a girl or married into it?

BTW, have you seen the poll that the majority of Christians in the US believe Jesus was created? I cannot remember the exact verbiage.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
What a rubbish link.

"Only a minority of U.S. evangelicals agree with this biblical doctrine, showing that the influence of Arminian theology remains strong in American evangelical churches."

Whodda thunk Arminians are the big evil guys making all the peoples have wrong theology!!!

Good to know man.
I wasn't implying that about Arminians.
 
Top