Election

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
The pre-fall Adam did not bear the sins of the world nor intercede for the sins of the world, I don't think there is supposed to be that direct a comparison. The comparisons made are "as in Adam all die/sin" so all those in Christ will "reign in life/be glorified."

If Jesus is taking the penalty of sin—however you specifically want to delineate that—the method used was mystical union with the sinner, which is why we are crucified with Christ, one spirit with Christ, and the body of Christ; which necessarily associates him with sin.

Christ became the curse of the law, he who knew no sin was made sin; if he did not really and truly carry our sin, but in name only, I think it would have actually been a breach of justice; and in that union with us he mediates with all humankind, even his own humanity.

I don't think it need be deduced that the life of Jesus had a personal sin or imperfection that needed atonement by these above facts, and Jesus did not die for his own sins; but by becoming the sin offering he was necessarily in union with sinful humanity.
Thanks for your explanation but I have a different soteriology and use scripture to back it up, this one for starters:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. (ASV)
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Well I'm glad, but your link was indeed implying that.
They are Reformed, so it makes sense why they might take that view.
But please know I regularly try to convince as many people they weren't chosen by God as possible.
I know ;)
Not to mention... God decreed those evil Arminians to spread their evil theology, so that site is glorifying man over God's decree.
I think its funny when Calvinists say "I dont understand why you dont believe like me". Well, maybe not funny.
The insanity of some Calvinists makes my brain hurt.
:cry:
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Well I'm glad, but your link was indeed implying that.

But please know I regularly try to convince as many people they weren't chosen by God as possible.

Not to mention... God decreed those evil Arminians to spread their evil theology, so that site is glorifying man over God's decree.

The insanity of some Calvinists makes my brain hurt.
I'm a CalMinian.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Are we sure a Biblical definition of man necessitates flesh and blood?
According to BDAG, Jesus is a man at 1 Ti 2:5 because he identifies with humanity. So not necessarily. But there are many here who think so.

I've already provided quotes here where BDAG says Jesus' resurrection body was not a physical body and that Paul says that it is not composed of dust. I am referring to his teaching at 1 Co 15.
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
What a rubbish link.

"Only a minority of U.S. evangelicals agree with this biblical doctrine, showing that the influence of Arminian theology remains strong in American evangelical churches."

Whodda thunk Arminians are the big evil guys making all the peoples have wrong theology!!!

Good to know man.
It also says:

Nearly one-third of evangelicals in the survey agreed that Jesus isn't God, compared to 65 percent who said "Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God."
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Are you sure he's a member?
Members usually have to agree to the doctrines taught, or at the very least agree not to teach contrary to them.

Absolutely. I can't speak for Pastors White and Durbin on every detail, but I'm pretty sure that, that person would be NOT be offered membership.
They believe in a serious intentional church. It's not the kind of church that has mostly (only) Sunday-go-to-meetin' Christians.

Ministry Interest Guidelines - Apologia Church

Thank you for your desire to be a part of the work God is doing through Apologia Church. We sincerely praise God for every opportunity with which He has blessed us to expand Christ’s Kingdom here on earth through the work of the Gospel. It greatly encourages us to know that others desire to do the same. We frequently receive requests from faithful Brothers and Sisters to join with Apologia Church in this work, whether here in Arizona, in other states, and even other countries. Receiving the number of requests that we have has required us to put together a formal and official procedural plan for these inquiries. You will never see us hire leadership from outside of Apologia, but only raise up from within. This is something that we are incredibly intentional about and take very seriously. Please take a few minutes to prayerfully consider the following processes we have put into place:
1. The very first and foundational thing we require, is that you become a member at Apologia Church in Arizona under the guidance, care, and accountability of the founding elders. If you are in another state or country, this would mean moving to Arizona. This would allow us to get to know and watch you and would allow you to get to know us and learn how we operate as a church body. If you need to move to Arizona, we ask that you visit here at least once and have a formal meeting with at least one of the elders. We also request that you have a job, housing, and transportation established prior to your move.
2. Once you have become a member of Apologia Church, we require a minimum of two years to watch you and grow with you as the Body of Christ. This probationary period will ultimately serve as a ministry test to see if you truly want to multiply the work being done here and also allow us to decide whether or not you are someone that we can trust with this task. It is important to know that moving here and/or becoming a member at Apologia Church in no way serves as a guarantee of moving forward together in ministry. We reserve the right to end any potential ministry at any given moment if we see any concerns or red flags.
3. After the two year probationary period, if we determine that you are a good fit and ultimately trust you with our lives, we can then at that point possibly begin to discuss the possibility of raising you up either as leadership within Apologia Church in Arizona, or sending you elsewhere to plant another Apologia Church, or even as a missionary. If we decide to move forward, we estimate at least another two-year process. If looking to plant somewhere else, given our experience, three to four years is more likely. Again, there is no guarantee of this.
4. If you are looking to be raised up as an elder, it is important that you know we have very specific things we are looking for in potential elders. First, we want to see you take initiative. You should consistently be the first one there and the last to leave, always asking for things to do. We should never have to ask you to help with menial tasks. You should never be afraid to get your hands dirty, bleed, sweat, and cry. Secondly, we need to know that you are scared to death to teach from the pulpit. You should have a healthy fear of dishonoring Christ during worship. Asking us for pulpit time is an immediate red flag and instant strike against you. Third, you should have the gift of teaching. To ensure this, we will put you into the teaching rotation for our Advanced Theological Teaching on Thursday nights to give you opportunities to hone your skills and allow us to determine if your teaching abilities meet our standards.
5. Lastly, it is crucial that you are courageous. We will not raise up cowards. We will watch you to make sure that during trials, in public evangelism, or in the everyday events of life, you act like a man; that you do not faint in the day of adversity. If we decide to continue to raise you up beyond this point, we will first put you into deacon training for a minimum of 6 months, and then make you an official deacon. This will allow you to see how our church government works. From there if we desire to raise you up as an elder, we will intentionally pour into you for as long as we deem necessary. Again, there is no guarantee of this.
If this is something that still interests you after reading and praying through our procedural requirements, please contact us to set up a conversation or an in-person meeting with one of our elders. To reiterate, we are incredibly thankful for your desire to be a part of God’s work through Apologia Church. If you have any questions, please email [email protected].

Soli Deo Gloria,

The Elders of Apologia Church
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
That's why in this case we cannot consider it as a pure adjective. That's why our English versions render it as a verb (gave) and not an adjective (giving).
Or, as I've said before, it's because it's an aorist tense! Occam's razor! This simplest answer is usually the the right one!

Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Or, as I've said before, it's because it's an aorist tense! Occam's razor! This simplest answer is usually the the right one!

Doug

It's an aorist PARTICIPLE (or, as Dr. Mounce calls it, an "undefined participle", since participles don't have a time element).

It's not an adjective...
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Is that Dr Whites church ?

Theo's answer is correct. Apologia is, of course, part of the Bride of Christ. In this case, it is the church which James White Pastors, along with other elders.

It might seem that the church is demanding compared to most other church bodies. The work of the Lord is demanding as well. We are a New Testament church and the Bible is the model that is used.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
First of all bdag is not the Bible . Who needs a lexicon to prove Jesus is God or a man since numerous scriptures say he is both ?
Ahh, you don't need a lexicon if you are a native speaker of koine Greek. If you don't know any Greek and you read an English translation then you can bet the translators used Greek Lexicons.

That's just the way it is. You have selected your English rendering by putting your trust in someone else.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
If that was the case no one could understand the Bible except those who can read Hebrew and Greek. That is a fallacious argument . They are nothing but tools that can help one have a better understanding of words they do not know.

And to think you are capable of refuting Dr Wallace with Greek is like me refuting Jesus. How Ridiculous
Are you for real? You probably read the KJV, the same bible Jesus did, eh?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If that was the case no one could understand the Bible except those who can read Hebrew and Greek. That is a fallacious argument .

Sorry, but it's not a fallacious argument, and it is 100% true.
The only reason we have English (or any other language Bibles today) is precisely because the translators are "those who can read Hebrew and Greek".

If you think you can understand the NT with
out knowing how to read Greek, that would be like trying to read Mandarin without knowing the Mandarin language.

And how do you learn a new language?
With (1) grammars (for the rules), and (2) lexicons (for the vocabulary).

They are nothing but tools that can help one have a better understanding of words they do not know.

Um, no.
Lexicons were NEVER intended to be used by people who don't know the language, to better understand terms without learning the language. The meaning of terms is LARGELY dependent on context, and SYNTAX.

Those who try to use lexicons without actually learning the language are the reason we have the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Yes at first glance it appears to be very demanding and it might not be for everyone but at least they are upfront with their expectations on membership. Thank you for sharing .

I believe there are people who see the work of the church and have the wrong idea about it. Kind of like the old saying "moth to a flame". No one should expect notoriety by being affiliated.

You can be a member at large, but if there is any expectation of church leadership, this process applies. I probably should have defined more clearly.

God Bless
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I believe there are people who see the work of the church and have the wrong idea about it. Kind of like the old saying "moth to a flame". No one should expect notoriety by being affiliated.

You can be a member at large, but if there is any expectation of church leadership, this process applies. I probably should have defined more clearly.

God Bless
They have the right model in place. I strongly agree that churches need to examine the lives of their members(as well as themselves). The Bible even says Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.[1 Tim. 5:22] I used to be a member of a church whose association members said a few times, “We have ordained our own problems.” Meaning, they ordained some as ministers who really were not ministers. If they’d used the approach Apologia Church uses, it would’ve said them tons of heartaches and headaches.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
It's an aorist PARTICIPLE (or, as Dr. Mounce calls it, an "undefined participle", since participles don't have a time element).

It's not an adjective...
Okay, then is it an adverbial participle? Can it be something other than? Aren't participles either adjectives or adverbs? Does it not reference "the man Christ Jesus", nominative nouns as an adjective?

Is my thinking about the present tense carrying over to apply 1 Tim 2:5c, that " the man Christ Jesus" on target, or am I mistaken?


Doug
 
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