Election

TomFL

Well-known member
Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:
(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).
(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain…(a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).
(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. reference uncertain Soteriology 101

An evangelical form of this same concept (perhaps in some cases influenced by Barth and in some cases not) views election as the choosing of the group, the church, in Christ, but not of individuals until after they become members of the group by faith. In the evangelical form there is no suggestion of universalism, though the idea of corporate election is common to both. We cannot speak of individuals being elected before the foundation of the world but only of the church being so elected in Christ (Eph. 1:4). When an individual believes in Christ, he is placed in that elect group, and then he can be said to be elect. “What did God choose before the foundation of the world? The church. Not individuals, but the body of Christ.”

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1999), 358–359.

MOD note. I see you have a reference, but I cannot tell which is from that Guide and what is your discussion of it. It's required.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
First I have not posted the entire SEA website on Carm

so lets not bear false witness

You've posted two articles from it just today.
That is NOT what this forum is for!

And don't talk to me about "bearing false witness", as long as YOU continue to misrepresent me.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You've posted two articles from it just today.
That is NOT what this forum is for!

And don't talk to me about "bearing false witness", as long as YOU continue to misrepresent me.
False

I posted an article from Soteriology 101 and another article from Ryrie's basic theology

They both supported the interpretation I gave on Ephesians 1 a while back and have continued to this day

The bottom-line is you cannot refute the corporate election view or the Arminian foreknowledge view and also cannot show that the passage speaks of unconditional election to salvation

Additionally you cannot rebut the fact men are in Christ when they believe and not selected arbitrarily to be in Christ

The passage just notes God chose a body - the faithful in Christ that is the church to be holy and blameless before him in love
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note).

Correct which union was first established in Christ before the foundation of the World If Christ the Head existed before the foundation of the World, which He did, when He was Loved by His Father Jn 17 24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

And the Head Christ and His Body, the Church are One, and so they were Loved before the foundation as was Christ their Head, says so right here Vs 23

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So theres a Eternal Union of Believers with Christ, chosen in Him, before the foundation !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

The bottom-line is you cannot refute the corporate election view or the Arminian foreknowledge view and also cannot show that the passage speaks of unconditional election to salvation

The corporate election view is a strawman argument, for a corporation is nothing more than a assemblage of individuals. Definition of corporation

an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members.See also municipal corporation, public corporation.
(initial capital letter) the group of principal officials of a borough or other municipal division in England.
any group of persons united or regarded as united in one body.

The Body of Christ, every member of it, was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World Eph 1 4..and since the members had no actual being yet, their choice by God was unconditional, for they had no being yet. Just as Paul points out about the purpose of Election in Rom 9 :

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

This is crystal clear Election is Unconditional !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Correct which union was first established in Christ before the foundation of the World If Christ the Head existed before the foundation of the World, which He did, when He was Loved by His Father Jn 17 24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

And the Head Christ and His Body, the Church are One, and so they were Loved before the foundation as was Christ their Head, says so right here Vs 23

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So theres a Eternal Union of Believers with Christ, chosen in Him, before the foundation !
No not according to scripture

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there was no union with individuals before the foundation of the earth

until they believe men are separated from Christ

You seem to have a problem believing scripture

also

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

as can be seen men are in Christ when they believe
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No not according to scripture

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there was no union with individuals before the foundation of the earth

until they believe men are separated from Christ

You seem to have a problem believing scripture

also

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

as can be seen men are in Christ when they believe
Yes according to the scriptures which you don't understand
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes according to the scriptures which you don't understand
Sorry the scriptures refuted you

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there was no union with individuals before the foundation of the earth

until they believe men are separated from Christ

You seem to have a problem believing scripture

also

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

as can be seen men are in Christ when they believe
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry the scriptures refuted you

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there was no union with individuals before the foundation of the earth

until they believe men are separated from Christ

You seem to have a problem believing scripture

also

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

as can be seen men are in Christ when they believe
You don't know what you talking about. When were the believers in Eph 1 13 chosen in Christ Jesus according to Eph 1 4?

In fact that whole context from Vs 3 to Vs 11 is Gospel truth. That means in Gospel preaching Election, unconditional and predestination should be preached.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You don't know what you talking about. When were the believers in Eph 1 13 chosen in Christ Jesus according to Eph 1 4?

In fact that whole context from Vs 3 to Vs 11 is Gospel truth. That means in Gospel preaching Election, unconditional and predestination should be preached.
sorry unconditional election was never mentioned

that is your first problem

Your second problem is men are in Christ when they believe not before

Eph 1:13

The Ephesians were plainly told they were separate from Christ at a certain point in their life

Eph 2:12
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sorry unconditional election was never mentioned

that is your first problem

Your second problem is men are in Christ when they believe not before

Eph 1:13

The Ephesians were plainly told they were separate from Christ at a certain point in their life

Eph 2:12
Unconditional is implied since election took place in Christ before the foundation of the world. That is before they were born to do anything. What does Eph 1:4 say?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Unconditional is implied since election took place in Christ before the foundation of the world. That is before they were born to do anything. What does Eph 1:4 say?
no it is not implied

One can just as easily appeal to foreknowledge of faith Actually the appeal to foreknowledge of faith makes more sense

For no one was in Christ before the foundation of the earth to be chosen in Christ to be holy
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
no it is not implied

One can just as easily appeal to foreknowledge of faith Actually the appeal to foreknowledge of faith makes more sense

For no one was in Christ before the foundation of the earth to be chosen in Christ to be holy
Most certainly it's implied since they were Chosen in Christ Jesus before they had being. And it was based upon unconditional Grace! You heard of the Election of Grace?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Most certainly it's implied since they were Chosen in Christ Jesus before they had being. And it was based upon unconditional Grace! You heard of the Election of Grace?
sorry you offer no evidence of that

Unconditional election is never mentioned
 

Sketo

Active member
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:28-31

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, - 2 Timothy 1:9

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - 1 Corinthians 15:10
 

Sketo

Active member
Large and colorful fonts are kind of distracting. Hard to read. lol
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:28-31

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, - 2 Timothy 1:9

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - 1 Corinthians 15:10
 

TomFL

Well-known member
They were chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation is evidence.
Individually when they believed


Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”

before belief they were without Christ

Eph. 2:11–12 —ESV
“uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”
 
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