Eliphaz’s questions

[puddleglum]

When God tested Job to prove his loyalty three of Job’s friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, came to him to comfort him. They assumed that Job’s suffering was the result of some sin he had committed. Eliphaz asked these two questions,

“Who that was innocent ever perished?
Or where were the upright cut off?”
Job 4:7

When Eliphaz asked the questions they were unanswerable because Jesus Christ had not yet appeared on earth. Now that he has come we know the answers.

“Who that was innocent ever perished?”

Jesus Christ. He was the only innocent person who ever lived. Because he was innocent he didn’t have to die, but he chose to die in our place so we could be forgiven.

“Where were the upright cut off?”

He should have asked, “Where was the upright cut off,” because Jesus was the only truly upright person. The answer is: At Calvary, where Jesus was crucified.

Eliphaz didn’t understand that all of us are evil and can never achieve the righteousness that God requires by our own efforts. We can be made righteous because Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead.

 

[cjab]

Eliphaz didn’t understand that all of us are evil and can never achieve the righteousness that God requires by our own efforts. We can be made righteous because Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead.

I think there is a tendency to inflate the evil of man, per the Manichaean or Augustinian conception of original sin.

Fact is Cornelius the Roman Centurion was declared righteous in his own way without even having known of Christ.
Fact is Christ said, Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

These infer that there is a measure of righteousness that lies outside of Jesus, obtained by "their own efforts."

One must never deprecate "our own efforts," especially where they are, as per Cornelius, well directed.

I must never be said "our own efforts" are not valuable. Nothing could be more theologically in error. Only if there is some specific reason to say that could such be said, such as our efforts being misdirected.

 

[puddleglum]

Fact is Cornelius the Roman Centurion was declared righteous in his own way without even having known of Christ.

God told Cornelius that his prayers and alms had ascended as a memorial. He did not declare that he was righteous. He still needed to hear and believe the gospel.

Some people appear righteous in comparison to other people but they fall short of God's standards of righteousness and cannot be saved by their own efforts.

Our good works are important and God will reward them whether we are saved of lost. I have already posted something on this subject.: https://forums.carm.org/threads/god-will-judge-our-works.5813/

 

[cjab]

God told Cornelius that his prayers and alms had ascended as a memorial. He did not declare that he was righteous. He still needed to hear and believe the gospel.

Sorry, I meant that God declared those particular deeds of his righteous.

Some people appear righteous in comparison to other people but they fall short of God's standards of righteousness and cannot be saved by their own efforts.

I think you need to be careful about "by one's own's efforts." The point is whether "one's own efforts" are inspired by God, or self. Jesus couldn't possibly rule out that in the context of the Israelite theocracy, i.e. that there weren't people who didn't already have faith in God, Hab 2:4, such that their efforts weren't inspired by God. The Old Testament knew of the distinction between the righteous and the wicked but I agree that they all fell short of the righeusness of Christ.

Just because they fell short of Christ's righteousness doesn't mean to say they weren't saved. You cannot condemn the entirety of the world pre-Christ as "unsaved" just because they didn't have the righteousness of Christ.

Our good works are important and God will reward them whether we are saved of lost. I have already posted something on this subject.: https://forums.carm.org/threads/god-will-judge-our-works.5813/

If we are lost, it is unlikely we will be doing "good works." If we are really doing good works, we may not be "lost" because as Hab 2:4 and the whole of the OT allows, people had faith in God throughout the whole of history.

 

[puddleglum]

If we are lost, it is unlikely we will be doing "good works." If we are really doing good works, we may not be "lost" because as Hab 2:4 and the whole of the OT allows, people had faith in God throughout the whole of history.

Before I was saved I did good works because I thought that was the way to please God and be allowed into Heaven.

And look at the life of Paul before his salvation. "I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."

Saved people do good works because God has saved them; unsaved people to good works in an attempt to achieve salvation. God will reward both for the good they have done, but salvation does not depend on works but on faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[cjab]

Before I was saved I did good works because I thought that was the way to please God and be allowed into Heaven.

And look at the life of Paul before his salvation. "I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."

Paul couldn't have been blameless under the law as interpreted by Christ, because he was a persecutor of the church. He construed himself as blameless under the legalistic ordinances of the law, and was by others construed as so blameless, but in reality wasn't blameless under the higher principles of the law as taught by Christ. So he is alluding "here" to an illusion of blamelessness and an illusion of good works that comes from legalistic righteousness alone.

Now even that level of "righteousness" did stand Paul in good stead before God, because on account of it was he chosen as apostles to the Gentiles.

Saved people do good works because God has saved them; unsaved people to good works in an attempt to achieve salvation. God will reward both for the good they have done, but salvation does not depend on works but on faith in Jesus Christ.

Salvation does depend on works, but the works of faith, not the works that come from the legalism of the law.

Jas 2:18 "But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

It may well be that there is a coincidence between works of faith and works done without faith. Thus a pagan can be faithful to his wife, just as much as a Christian. Faithfulness in each case is a product of "our own effort."

What is needed is that "our own effort" be directed to works of faith.

 

[Stephen]

When God tested Job to prove his loyalty three of Job’s friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, came to him to comfort him. They assumed that Job’s suffering was the result of some sin he had committed. Eliphaz asked these two questions,

“Who that was innocent ever perished?”

When Eliphaz asked the questions they were unanswerable because Jesus Christ had not yet appeared on earth. Now that he has come we know the answers.

“Where were the upright cut off?”

Jesus Christ. He was the only innocent person who ever lived. Because he was innocent he didn’t have to die, but he chose to die in our place so we could be forgiven.

When quoting the book of Job, it should always be in the front of our minds that nobody speaking understood God and did not speak rightly of him possibly excepting Elihu (See Job 42:7). To answer the question raised, I think Eliphaz's question was based on the false premise that the God of Job was a God of retribution at the individual level for each and every one of us. He's not, nor does he claim to be.

The answer to Eliphaz's question is that the innocent die, that is a fact of life. Death came upon all men (innocent or otherwise) because of Adam's sin. And likewise Jesus died, just like everybody else. Jesus did not die in anybody's place as evidenced by the fact that we will all also die just like all who came before us (including Jesus).

 

[Harel13]

He should have asked, “Where was the upright cut off,” because Jesus was the only truly upright person

That, or he had absolutely no idea who Jesus was, and likely, if queried today, would answer with: "Who???", and was therefore referring to the concept of righteousness as it existed before and still exists outside of Christianity.