Ellen's TBI and the subsequent behaviors

JonHawk

Active member
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
How can we, the very ones who died to sin, continue to live in it any longer?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:1-4)

The [new] life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God;

Common Tater said:
So you are saying that you never fall short of the mark and have to ask the Lord for forgiveness? Never a cross word, never a wrong thought, never a slip-up? Are you saying that you have reached a point where you are living a sinless life?
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.
As you accurately pointed out on a previous post, #167 it is only after faith has come that we awake to righteousness, are alive in Christ.

Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. (1 Cor 15:34)


You did not answer my question. Are you saying that you no longer sin? That you are living a perfect sinless life? You never come up short?
It may have not suited your palate, but the answer is plain as day. Those in the faith are not living in sin since they have been joined to another who was raised from dead in order to bear fruit for God.

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8
 
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Common Tater

Active member
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
How can we, the very ones who died to sin, continue to live in it any longer?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:1-4)

The [new] life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God;


Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.
As you accurately pointed out on a previous post, #167 it is only after faith has come that we awake to righteousness, are alive in Christ.

Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. (1 Cor 15:34)



It may have not suited your palate, but the answer is plain as day. Those in the faith are not living in sin since they have been joined to another who was raised from dead in order to bear fruit for God.

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8
You've quoted Scripture, but you have not answered my question. Do you personally no longer ever sin? Do you personally never fall short and have to ask the Lord for forgiveness? If you do not, it should not be hard to reply "I, JonHawk, never sin". If you do, it should not be hard to say "Yes, I, JonHawk, sometimes fall short of the mark and have to ask God for forgiveness."
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk said:
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
How can we, the very ones who died to sin, continue to live in it any longer?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:1-4)

The [new] life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God;

Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8

You've quoted Scripture, but you have not answered my question.
So do you have a problem with John the beloved, who said, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His Seed remains in him."1 John 3:8-10
Do you personally no longer ever sin?
Judge for yourself, are believers dead in sins and transgressions or are they alive in Christ?
Do you personally never fall short
No one who believes in Christ falls short of God's grace.

and have to ask the Lord for forgiveness?
The one who falls short of God's grace is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

If you do, it should not be hard to say "Yes, I, JonHawk, sometimes fall short of the mark and have to ask God for forgiveness."
Are you a new covenant Christian?
Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. (Heb 10:16-18)


If you do not, it should not be hard to reply "I, JonHawk, never sin".

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8

And that is what we are! 1 John 3:1
 
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Common Tater

Active member
JonHawk said:
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
How can we, the very ones who died to sin, continue to live in it any longer?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:1-4)

The [new] life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God;

Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8


So do you have a problem with John the beloved, who said, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him."1 John 3:8-10

Judge for yourself, are believers dead in sins and transgressions or are they alive in Christ?

No one who believes in Christ falls short of God's grace.


The one who falls short of God's grace is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.


The Spirit you received does not make you slaves; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom 8

And that is what we are! 1 John 3:1

Are you a new covenant Christian?
Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. (Heb 10:16-18)
Still haven't answered my question. It is my understanding that Christians still find themselves coming up short, losing their tempers or perhaps saying something harsh to someone that they wish they could take back. They do not live in sin any longer, do not willfully sin, and yet are not perfect and find themselves still asking the Lord, as well as those they may have wronged, for forgiveness.

Are you married? If so, do you never find yourself having to tell your better half that you are sorry and could she forgive you?

Still want to know if you believe that you've reached a state of sinlessness.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.

Still haven't answered my question.
It's already been addressed on a previous post, #199
It is my understanding that Christians still find themselves coming up short, losing their tempers or perhaps saying something harsh to someone that they wish they could take back.
Which is why they need to get over themselves, This is not of yourselves...Eph 2
Still want to know if you believe that you've reached a state of sinlessness.
Those seeking to rehabilitate the flesh, to be released from the effects of karma and obtain nirvana, have no interest in promoting the faith, redemption in Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ; 2 Cor 5
 
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Common Tater

Active member
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.


It's already been addressed on a previous post, #199

Which is why they need to get over themselves, This is not of yourselves...Eph 2

Those seeking to rehabilitate the flesh, to be released from the effects of karma and obtain nirvana, have no interest in promoting the faith, redemption in Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ; 2 Cor 5
Sorry, but no, you still have not answered my question. I asked you if you, personally, no longer ever sin. You've quoted different Bible verses, but you have never answered the question.

Are you an Adventist? It has been my experience, even the thirty years that I was an SDA, that those who push the sinless perfected character the hardest will flat out refuse to answer the question as to whether they still sin. Just like trying to get a straight answer on the Trinity and whether the Son is Eternal God or a created being, getting a straight answer is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk said:
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.


It's already been addressed on a previous post, #199

Which is why they need to get over themselves, This is not of yourselves...Eph 2

Those seeking to rehabilitate the flesh, to be released from the effects of karma and obtain nirvana, have no interest in promoting the faith, redemption in Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ; 2 Cor 5

Sorry, but no, you still have not answered my question. I asked you if you, personally, no longer ever sin. You've quoted different Bible verses, but you have never answered the question.
Why on earth would you lie to yourself about being a flawless human being when anyone can see that you're delusional.
Are you an Adventist? It has been my experience, even the thirty years that I was an SDA, that those who push the sinless perfected character the hardest will flat out refuse to answer the question as to whether they still sin.
No, I am not SDA. Clearly this is hard for you to wrap around your former SDA mind, but the reason we who believe are not in sin is because of the flawless sacrifice of Christ.

Just like trying to get a straight answer on the Trinity and whether the Son is Eternal God or a created being, getting a straight answer is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
Not only is Christ eternal, He is the source of eternal life for all those who believe.

Christ is the same always, it is good for the heart to be established by grace.
 

Common Tater

Active member
JonHawk said:
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son. What you're describing is relying on the old nature, seeking to rehabilitate the flesh.


It's already been addressed on a previous post, #199

Which is why they need to get over themselves, This is not of yourselves...Eph 2

Those seeking to rehabilitate the flesh, to be released from the effects of karma and obtain nirvana, have no interest in promoting the faith, redemption in Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ; 2 Cor 5


Why on earth would you lie to yourself about being a flawless human being when anyone can see that you're delusional.

No, I am not SDA. Clearly this is hard for you to wrap around your former SDA mind, but the reason we who believe are not in sin is because of the flawless sacrifice of Christ.


Not only is Christ eternal, He is the source of eternal life for all those who believe.

Christ is the same always, it is good for the heart to be established by grace.
I've been out of Adventism for almost as long as I was in it and I think I've a pretty decent handle on what Grace thru Faith means. It was that very realization that God used to break my heart. When you come out of a movement that tells you that you must perfect your character before Christ's return, that God cannot come back until His people prove that you can live in perfect obedience to the Law, your antannae go up if you hear someone putting what sounds to be that doctrine out there. Adventism pays lip service to Grace by Faith, but you don't have to scratch too deeply to remove that thin veneer and discover that it is still ultimately Salvation thru Works. Adventism is a mix of legalism, pelagianism, semi-pelagianism, arianism, semi-arianism, and judaizing.

I've met very few Christians who are afraid to admit that they still sin. Most always, what I hear after that admission is what I am thankful for too.

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1John 1:5-9 NASB
 

JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk:
Not only is Christ eternal, He is the source of eternal life for all those who believe.

Christ is the same always, it is good for the heart to be established by grace.
I've been out of Adventism for almost as long as I was in it and I think I've a pretty decent handle on what Grace thru Faith means.
Anyone who isn't twice dead, in trespasses and sins knows how they were granted access to God.

We have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus ...of how you heard of the blessed hope reserved in heaven for you; the gospel of salvation
which has come to you. Indeed, just as in the whole world the gospel is constantly bearing fruit and spreading [by God’s power], just as it has been doing among you ever since the day you first heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth. (Col 1)

When you come out of a movement that tells you that you must perfect your character before Christ's return, that God cannot come back until His people prove that you can live in perfect obedience to the Law, your antannae go up if you hear someone putting what sounds to be that doctrine out there.

How about if you get rid of your old rabbit ears and taste and see that He is good.

Coming to Him the Living Stone, ...offering spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.
For this is contained in Scripture:

Behold, I am lay in Zion a Choice Cornerstone;

For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; (1 Peter 2)
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. ....1John 1:5-9 NASB

For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [as those alive in Christ, born of God]. {Eph 5)

_________________________________________________________
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son
 
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JonHawk

Active member
JonHawk:
Not only is Christ eternal, He is the source of eternal life for all those who believe.

Christ is the same always, it is good for the heart to be established by grace.
Common Tater said:
I've been out of Adventism for almost as long as I was in it and I think I've a pretty decent handle on what Grace thru Faith means.
Anyone who isn't twice dead, in trespasses and sins knows how they were granted access to God.

We have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus ..[* because ] of the blessed hope reserved in heaven for you; the gospel of salvation
which has come to you. Indeed, just as in the whole world the gospel is constantly bearing fruit and spreading [by God’s power], just as it has been doing among you ever since the day you first heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth. (Col 1)

Common Tater said:
When you come out of a movement that tells you that you must perfect your character before Christ's return, that God cannot come back until His people prove that you can live in perfect obedience to the Law, your antannae go up if you hear someone putting what sounds to be that doctrine out there.

How about if you get rid of your old rabbit ears and taste and see that He is good.

Coming to Him the Living Stone, ...offering spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.
For this is contained in Scripture:

Behold, I am lay in Zion a Choice Cornerstone;

For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; (1 Peter 2)
Common Tater said:
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. ....1John 1:5-9 NASB

For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [as those alive in Christ, born of God]. {Eph 5)

_________________________________________________________
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son
 

Common Tater

Active member
How about if you get rid of your old rabbit ears and taste and see that He is good.
If you still had friends and family who were trapped in such a system, would you just turn your back on them? Paul was a pharisee, a Jew's Jew, and yet he surely didn't get rid of his old rabbit ears when it came to judaizing and the Galatians.
 

Common Tater

Active member
In who's authority do you use, to understanding sin as ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
I know you can sin without breaking the law. Jesus said that if you lust, you've already committed adultery in your heart. You haven't broken a commandment that tells you not to commit adultery, you've obeyed the law, but you've still sinned. I know that one person will eat only vegetables while another will eat anything put in front of him, one holds a day above another while another sees them all as the same. Paul says that each must be fully convinced in his own mind. Anything that you might do where you think you know better than God would be sin.

But I'm not asking if a person has stopped sinning as I understand it. I'm asking if that person if he has stopped sinning as he understands it.

By the way, you still have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you rather believe that he is a created being?
 

JonHawk

Active member
When you come out of a movement that tells you that you must perfect your character before Christ's return, that God cannot come back until His people prove that you can live in perfect obedience to the Law, your antannae go up if you hear someone putting what sounds to be that doctrine out there.

If you still had friends and family who were trapped in such a system, would you just turn your back on them? Paul was a pharisee, a Jew's Jew, and yet he surely didn't get rid of his old rabbit ears when it came to judaizing and the Galatians.
Nevertheless, you can't help but notice that while he was tuned in with his old rabbit ear antenna he was zealous for the traditions of man, but when God intervened, "called through His grace, to reveal His Son," he had a change of heart.

They reported: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. So that I may be found in Him [in saving faith], not having any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law and its rituals, but [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. That I may know the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may partake in unity of faith] partake in the fellowship of His sufferings;
 
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Common Tater

Active member
But you can't help noticing that while he was tuned in with his old rabbit ear antenna he was zealous for the traditions of man, but when
God intervened, "called through His grace, to reveal His Son," he had a change of heart.

They reported: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. So that I may be found in Him [in saving faith], not having any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law and its rituals, but [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. That I may know the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may partake in unity of faith] partake in the fellowship of His sufferings;
His letter to the Galatians (late 40's early 50's AD) occurred quite a while after his change of heart (31-36 AD). He wrote the letter because his antennae were up about them being Judaized. He wasn't happy about that at all. In fact, he said he wished the ones doing the judaizing would castrate themselves.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Nevertheless, you can't help but notice that while he was tuned in with his old rabbit ear antenna he was zealous for the traditions of man, but when God intervened, "called through His grace, to reveal His Son," he had a change of heart.

They reported: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. So that I may be found in Him [in saving faith], not having any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law and its rituals, but [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. That I may know the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may partake in unity of faith] partake in the fellowship of His sufferings;

His letter to the Galatians (late 40's early 50's AD) occurred quite a while after his change of heart (31-36 AD). He wrote the letter because his antennae were up about them being Judaized. He wasn't happy about that at all. In fact, he said he wished the ones doing the judaizing would castrate themselves.
Oooh that's brutal.

Beware of the dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

_________________________________________________________
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son
 
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JonHawk

Active member
Common Tater said:
When you come out of a movement that tells you that you must perfect your character before Christ's return, that God cannot come back until His people prove that you can live in perfect obedience to the Law, your antannae go up if you hear someone putting what sounds to be that doctrine out there.

JonHawk said:
How about if you get rid of your old rabbit ears and taste and see that He is good.


Coming to Him the Living Stone, ...offering spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.
For this is contained in Scripture:
Behold, I am lay in Zion a Choice Cornerstone;
For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; (1 Peter 2)

Common Tater said:
If you still had friends and family who were trapped in such a system, would you just turn your back on them? Paul was a pharisee, a Jew's Jew, and yet he surely didn't get rid of his old rabbit ears when it came to judaizing and the Galatians.

JonHawk said:
Nevertheless, you can't help but notice that while he was tuned in with his old rabbit ear antenna he was zealous for the traditions of man, but when God intervened, "called through His grace, to reveal His Son," he had a change of heart.

They reported: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. So that I may be found in Him [in saving faith]

How about that for a pair of mixed metaphors? o_O
The rabbit ear antenna is the only metaphor, which relates to having a keen sense of perception.
The taste and see is that He is good refers to the reality of faith in Christ:

If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. (Ephesians 4:21-25)

_________________________________________________________
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son
 
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John t

Super Member
The rabbit ear antenna is the only metaphor, which relates to having a keen sense of perception.
The taste and see is that He is good refers to the reality of faith in Christ:
I understood what you meant about "rabbit ears" but even the ears attached to the rabbit do not work here. That is because neither the television rabbit ears, nor the ones attached to the rabbit can taste anything.

I thought it was funny, so I made that comment.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Jon Hawk:
The taste and see that He is good refers to the reality of faith in Christ:

If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus...
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. (Ephesians 4:21-25)


I understood what you meant about "rabbit ears" but even the ears attached to the rabbit do not work here. That is because neither the television rabbit ears, nor the ones attached to the rabbit can taste anything.
Neither through the devices of man nor through the beasts that perish can discernment be found.
It could be you're on to something John.

Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain; He is like the beasts that perish. Psalm 49:12

_________________________________________________________
Living in sin = spiritually dead.
Missing the mark is whatever is not from faith in the Son
 
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